Melodie had a great idea..Protein is the hardest thing to control for many of us..Restaurants serve huge amounts of meat, etc. and at home, the same thing.

Some hints that I have used:

1. Get a cheap kitchen scale and start weighing out your protein

This may sound like a lot of work, however, it will give you a much better idea
as to how much 3 ounces or whatever looks like..

2. When eating out, ask for a doggie bag first, then put the amount that you aren't going to eat in the container and set it aside..Don't eat what is NOT on your plate.

3. Share with your family member when you are eating out. Some dh's or dw's don't like to do this, but you can order a side salad and share the meat/protein..

4. Keep track with fitday..This is a lifesaver, for sure.

5. Now that the weather is getting cooler, make soups with small amounts of meat in it and you will get full and enjoy the veggies, and have a bit of meat to boot.

6. When getting a WalMart chicken, you can measure out the correct amount of chicken and bag it up, freeze it or whatever, so you can grab and go and make chicken salad or zap it in the microwave, etc.

Keep going folks..We all need all the help we can get on this protein thing!!!

EXCELLENT TIPS, Carolyn!

Hey Carolyn,

Thanks so much for the great tips. It's really what we need. It's hard to change your mindset about the protein thing. I had an awesome breakfast this morning the was a perfectly balanced Groves' breakfast and no one would have ever guessed it was a diet. I just got in, so I will post the details later. Thanks again!

Guys and gals, I hate to be contrarian, but I don't believe you have anything to fear from protein. Dr. Mike Eades tackled this subject some time ago and I think it's worth repeating here. There are only certain conditions that the liver converts excess protein to carbohydrate. The main one is when there is a need to stabilize blood sugar. That is rarely the problem for a person on a low carb diet. The real danger stems from lean protein which is what Dr. Groves has in mind.

Hear from Dr. Eades yourself:

Dr. Mike,

A lot of low carbers on various forums seem to be almost deathly afraid of protein. They seem to think that any protein not used for bodily functions is instantly converted to glucose, causing an insulin reaction and fat storage. I see comments all the time like “I am not losing anymore. I must be eating too much protein.”

Is there ever a scenario that excess protein is converted to glucose, except for the times mentioned in your blog entry?

Hi Ryan–

This seems to be a common misconception. The only time protein is converted to glucose is when glucose levels in the blood are low. When dietary sources of carbohydrate are minimal, the body converts protein to glucose, but converts enough only to keep the blood sugar normal. Any ‘excess’ protein can be converted to fat and metabolized as fat. But, for the most part, this doesn’t really happen because the cost of protein metabolism is high, therefore a lot of it gets consumed in its own metabolism. It takes about a gram of protein to make 0.7 gm of glucose, so if one is on a low-carb diet requiring an extra 70 grams of glucose production daily, it takes about 100 gms of dietary protein just to keep glucose levels where they need to be. And that’s before the protein is even used for all the structural needs of the body i.e., hair, skin, nails, bone, enzymes, muscle, etc.

Hope this answers the question.

Cheers–

MRE

His article to which this comment refers is located here: Metabolism and Ketosis

This is basic biochemistry. Don't get protein confused with carbohydrate and fat. Protein is not used for fuel by the body. The body uses protein to make more body; i.e. muscles, bone, enzymes, hair. Protein is good for you because building muscle is what burns more fat. Protein, along with fat, has a natural ability to signal the body when it's satiated. There is simply no need to control protein at all unless you already have some sort of kidney disease.

But wait! Didn't Dr. Atkins make the statement that excess protein could be stored as glucose as well? Yes he did. However, he was concerned with a different problem, the same one that Dr. Groves was concerned with.

Therefore, let's hear from Dr. Groves:

There is one simple reason: While the body can use protein as an energy source in an emergency, it is not at all healthy to use this method in the long term. All carbs are made up of just three elements: carbon, hydrogen and. oxygen. All fats are also made of the same three elements. Proteins, however, also contain nitrogen and other elements. When proteins are used to provide energy, these must be got rid of in some way. This is not only wasteful, it can put a strain on the body, particularly on the liver and kidneys.

Excess intake of nitrogen leads in a short space of time to hyperammonaemia, which is a build up of ammonia in the bloodstream. This is toxic to the brain. Many human cultures survive on a purely animal product diet, but only if it is high in fat.[xii] [xiii] A lean meat diet, on the other hand cannot be tolerated; it leads to nausea in as little as three days, symptoms of starvation and ketosis in a week to ten days, severe debilitation in twelve days and possibly death in just a few weeks. A high-fat diet, however, is completely healthy for a lifetime.

Perhaps one of the best documented studies is that of the Arctic explorer, Vilhjalmur Stefansson and a colleague.[xiv] They ate an animal meat diet for more than a year to see whether such a diet could be healthy. Everything was fine until they were asked to eat only lean meat. Dr McClelland, the lead scientist, wrote:
'At our request he began eating lean meat only, although he had previously noted, in the North, that very lean meat sometimes produced digestive disturbances. On the third day nausea and diarrhea developed. When fat meat was added to the diet, a full recovery was made in two days.' This was a clinical study, but Stefansson had already lived for nearly twenty years on an all-meat diet with the Canadian Inuit. He and his team suffered no ill effects whatsoever. - Dr. Barry Groves (emphasis mine)

When Dr. Groves deals with the subject on his website, he is contrasting lean protein, such as organ meats, chicken breasts, turkey breasts and the like. The kind of meat that's popular on many of today's menus. The key is to eat fattier cuts of meat such as dark meat chicken, ribeye steaks, prime rib, halibut, ground chuck, top sirloin -- the fattier cuts of meat. When you do this, you will have the proper ratio of fat and protein that Dr. Groves refers to.

Please continue to fill up on fat and protein, control your carbs and you will have success losing weight. Please don't make it more complicated than that. If you are stalling, 1) eat more fat; and 2) build more muscle which burns more fat.

All the best,

Charles

Charles that is so weird that you posted the Groves quote because I was looking for that very one in my book to quote to you on another thread.

Here is where the confusion is coming in (I think). Groves clearly states in his book "Natural Health and Weight Loss" pg. 29 "Get the ratios right"
Carbs: 10%-15%, Protein 15% - 25%, Fat 60% - 70%. That is very hard to achieve if you are coming from that "chicken breast" for protein point of view. Many of the ladies here use Fitday or Daily Plate. I wanted to see what they were talking about with the protein so I put a couple of days worth of foods in and sure enough I was always at about 98g protein instead of the maximum of 75g of protein Groves prescribes for my size. The problem comes I believe from the method of determining your protein needs because that by it's very nature controls the calorie requirements and also the carbs and fat. I personally think there is a lot of wiggle room in there because Groves does not believe in counting anything, so it's obvious it doesn't have to be exact. I was trying to work out a pancake and bacon breakfast today which consisted of 1/4c carb quik, 1/4 c almond meal and 1 egg. To balance the breakfast I added 1/4 c blueberries and 2 strips of bacon. It did not balance, believe it or not it was too high in protein. So I separated the egg and used only the yolk (knowing all the protein is in the white) and it balanced. I took some other meals and replaced just chicken breast with chicken breast and cheese, it was a little better but still too high, then replaced all the chicken breast with pork chops (not the loin kind either) it was still too high. I finally got it to balance by adding pot roast in a smaller quantity 2 oz. and filling out the meal with some carbs. That brings me to another point. Most of us ladies who are doing Groves should be eating 30-45g carb, but a lot of people are stuck on the 20g. If you don't add in enough carbs it also skews the percentages.

I personally don't think you have to be that obsessed and that was what attracted me to Groves to begin with. The biggest lesson I have taken away from Groves is this, "replace carbs with protein for energy." That's it. Very simple. Now Atkins may have been saying that all along in a little different way, but I never got it, until now. What say you about our protein dilema?

Charles, You are so interesting to read..I really appreciate your input.
I remember reading PPower and I figured out my protein allotment and it was basically the same as Barry's protein allotment. I realize that we should use fat for energy, not depend on protein or carbs.

Melodie is right that we should aim for over 20 healthy veggie carbs as Barry allows UP to 60 healthy veggie carbs with some fruit. He even thinks people can do a slice of bread, if they wish.

Many people that I have known have been eating LOTS of protein, probably too much for their size/lean body mass, and when they realize
that they should cut it back to 100 grams or less, they are amazed and start losing weight.

This is an interesting discussion..keep it up, guys..

For me, I have found that I do pretty well at around 70 or so grams of protein, spread out during the day. Too much protein and I start gaining or don't lose.

Carolyn

Melodie:

The problem is the counters. I created an account on FitDay and put in various cuts of meat. The problem is that they only give results for lean meats and assume that the fat has been trimmed. This is very inaccurate. They don't distinguish properly between the cuts of meat, like the Ribeye, the Top Sirloin and NY Strip. The fat content varies widely. You can get a better idea here:

Atkins Carb Counter

Here, you'll see that they also assume the fat was trimmed, but at least they know that a ribeye has 22.4 grams of fat and a piece of brisket has only 9.4 grams of fat. Therefore, to follow Dr. Groves and Dr. Atkins properly you would want to eat the fattier portions.

I haven't read what you have, but here is more from Dr. Groves' article:

A Polish doctor, Jan Kwasniewski, who has used a low-carb diet to treat patients with a wide range of medical conditions for over thirty years, recommends a ratio of one part carb to two parts protein to between three and four parts fat, by weight. I see no reason to disagree with this. What it means in practice is that on a 2,000 calorie per day diet, we should get:
Ten to fifteen percent of calories from carbs
Twenty to thirty percent of calories from protein and
Sixty to seventy percent of calories from fats.
Or put another way, as it is difficult to work out percentages in this way, fifty to seventy-five grams of carb and the rest from meat, fish, eggs, cheese, and their natural fats. (Emphasis mine.)

This is also Atkins in a nutshell, although Atkins starts at 20g for Induction and goes from there. Your counters do not seperate the percentage of fat from the percentage of protein. If people are eating such lean meat, then that is the real problem. It's interesting that Dr. Groves lists eggs and cheese seperately from meat and also from carbs. Cheese, as you know, contains carbs.

In the article on his website which is found here: Use Fat Not Protein, Dr. Groves always falls back to the example of the Inuit, who ate a high fat diet. The fat that they ate was primarily contained in the meat they consumed. At one point, they substituted lean meat, and within three days, they were all sick. Once they restored the fatty meat, within two days all was well.

It's worth noting that in his discussion of gluconogenesis, he correctly identifies the percentages of protein that can be converted to glucose, but he omits the conditions for which this occurs. As Dr. Eades maintains, this is in periods of low blood sugar for the sole purpose of stabilizing same. Now, with such a high level of carbohydrates, 50-75%, it may be that this is more of a concern on the Groves plan since there is greater potential for the blood sugar to be unstable after allowing such a high intake of carbohydrate. And if you eat cheese which he doesn't seem to include with the carbs, you have to account for the carbs there too.

This article has to be taken in context. He is only using the percentages as argument against lean meat. He is not saying that one should base his plan on a 2,000 calorie regimen. He's just trying to give you a baseline percentage of how to arrange your plate at each meal. He is not at all concerned about the calorie count as evidenced by his words in this article:

Do Calories Really Count?

"It is the differences in chemical changes within our bodies that make low-carb diets better than low-fat, calorie-controlled ones easier to lose weight on. What the diet dictocrats fail to take into consideration when considering the laws of thermodynamics are the energy losses incurred in the different chemical changes within our bodies. When these are taken into consideration, neither law of thermodynamics is violated.

And, if you eat the right foods, you can forget all about counting calories."

There is a fundamental difference in fats found in meats than those found in other sources. You can't just put butter sauce on a chicken breast and expect it to add up to the quality of fat that you get from a ribeye steak.

Therefore, just like Atkins, if you stick to sub 50-75% carbs and the rest from fatty meat, you'll have no problem. If you're going to use lean meat like chicken breasts and mahi mahi instead of chicken thighs and smoked salmon, you'll need to smother those lean cuts in butter sauce, olive oil or cream sauce. There is no need to count calories or protein on Atkins and there is no need to count calories or protein on Dr. Groves' plan as long as you stay within the correct ratio of fat, protein and carbohydrate as prescribed. It's interesting that this article cites the exact same study that consumes the entire 7th chapter of the DANDR, the studies of Kekwick and Pawan which form the basis of all low carb diets, "the metabolic advantage of high fat diets."

The difference between Groves and Atkins is that Atkins starts low, so you can rise to the level of carbohydrate that is unique to your own metabolism. Dr. Groves asks you to keep the percentage of carbohydrates below 75% and eat as much fatty meat as possible. The only time you have to count is when you are having problems, such as no weight loss. The counting may help to determine the problem.

All the best,

Charles

Good points Charles, and I must admit I have wondered about the accuracy of those counters as well as the fact that they are not very user friendly. We also know that for instance with a pot roast there are parts of the roast that are decidedly fattier than other parts. That certainly can't be accounted for with Fitday and is something our "eyes" must tell us.

I think another big departure in the Groves' philosophy vs. Atkins, Groves is not particurally fond of ketosis in general. This is how he explains it in his book "When glucose appears in the urine of a diabetic, it is their body's way of getting rid of excess glucose - which is why giving diabetics extra carbs is a ridiculous protocal. Raising ketones in body tissues to such high levels that they have to be disposed of by excretion in urine, as is avocated on one popular low carb plan is exactly the same; the body is getting rid of something it has too much of. In a similar way to feeding diabetics more carbs, when they are already getting rid of excess glucose, feeding fats to people who's bodies are already rejecting ketones is equally stupid in my opinion." He goes on to say, "So while a ketogenic diet is healthy, I do not believe overt ketosis is desirable, and I have not found it necessary to go to such extremes. The 60 grams of carbohydrates in this plan are more than enough to avoid this."

So we could go round and round on this debate. I don't know if I necessarily agree with Groves on the ketosis point as I like not being hungry. Of course there may be a fine line for everyone where ketones are not spilling and we are not hungry either.

I believe those coming off a VLCD might actually be primed for the very situation that Eades describes in his posts, and that Groves warns against.

All in all I'm just going to go back to the title of the book "Natural Health and Weight Loss." I think the percentages are more by way of a template to get you a starting point, but in practice I think it's more of a "fly by the seat of your pants" plan, and that is why it's natural.

So in spite of all the rhetoric, I think we actually agree. LOL

I have seen on other threads a formula for calculating protein requirements based on:-

Lean body mass in pounds divided by 2.2 multiplied by 1 to 1.5

For me that is:-
105.2 divided by 2.2 = 47.82 multiplied by 1 to 1.5 = 47.82g to 71.73g

So according to this I should be eating around 47 to 71g of protein per day???? If I'm eating up to 71g per day of protein then fat should be 3 to 4 times that (according to Groves percentages) it seems a lot of fat...

I can see what your saying about fattier cuts of meat making this easier.

Kanjivee:

These are minimum "requirements" for a hypothetical person. Your mileage may certainly vary in these respects. If you are doing a workout program, especially weight lifting, then the minimum requirements will not be enough. If you are sedentary, then that may be just fine.

I don't just read Dr. Groves' ratio as applying throughout the day, I think it also applies to each meal, because that's how the Inuit would do it. The point is to allow the fat and protein to control hunger, thus the need for it at each meal. Don't think of it just in terms of, okay, I got it in today, so it's okay. If you let protein and fat be the foundation or each meal, you probably won't be hungry for that cheesecake and all those cheese and nuts. Each meal should be structured accordingly.

Regards,

Charles

Vee,

Please try to think of it this way, if you are eating 15-20g more protein as determined by your upper limits, that's only 60-80 calories more. Of these 60-80 calories maybe only 1/2 of them are available for conversion to sugar and that is only under the right circumstances. With as much fat as you are eating, those aren't the right circumstances because your body is going to use the fat first.

Eating Groves or Atkins style as we know, is not as simple as the old calories in calories out theory. Because Groves and Atkins are based on a lot of science they have to be quantified in some way thus the ratios. It's kind of like going to school for just about anything. A lot of "theory" is taught to set you up for the real lessons that are useful in life. You need the background. I used to be a stock broker once upon a time and I can tell you, I had to learn the theory but in practice most of it wasn't used. So what I'm trying to say is, you've learned the "theory" behind the diet, but you don't have to get the numbers exactly right to live the diet. It is a concept to guide you with your eating, but Groves would be the last one to want you to obsess over getting the ratios exactly perfect. Our bodies and the way we use food is not as exact as the answer to a math problem. So I would say relax, enjoy lots of butter or hollandaise on your veggies and fish, eat cream with your berries, do as Charles said look for the fattiest choices amongst the foods you like and "lose weight naturally".

You are so close to goal that I really think that's what's going on with you and nothing more. Cheers, and I hope you're not reading this now, it's 2am downunder!

Vee: Exactly..I had asked Barry once about the percentages at each meal and he said that was the IDEAL way to do that, however, he doesn't want us to tear our hair out on this, either..

Just focus on good healthy fatty meats, olive oil, butter, and good LC veggies with some LC fruits.

I think sometimes we all like to make things more complicated than they are, don't we?? I know I do sometimes.

It's all about tweaking amounts, too. One gal on LCF did Barry's plan exactly, but was taking in 2,000 calories a day..She gained about 15 pounds in a month. SOOOOOOO...portions DO count..LOLOL..

And, even though Barry says that we can eat up to 65 grams of carbs a day and still stay in ketosis, this is an individual thing, too. Just like Atkins
says to find your CCL..that is true for the Barry plan.

Men can probably eat more carbs than women..It's all up to the individual and the type of carbs you have..

If I eat more than 40-50g carbs in a day, I gain weight. I'm one of the unlucky ones.

I am feeling better about things today (ref my last post in the Protein, fat & carbs - Grrrrr!!!!! thread). I think I am getting a feel for how I should be eating. I want to eventually get to the point where I'm not counting at all and instinctively know how to eat, but it's a learning curve and I want to get it right coz I don't want to go back to the old way. My two biggies so far are that
1. I have broken the 143pd barrier (first time in years) - I was starting to think that wasn't possible any more and
2. I'm not yoyoing anymore. I was losing and gaining the same 7-10 pds over and over. Since locarbing I have just lost- sometimes fast, sometimes slow - but definately lost.


Seem to have gone abit off topic - Sorry...

You guys are awesome !!!!!!

That's where you want to be. I'm glad you are feeling better about things.

Great advise Carolyn.

Jimmy..I'm with you on the carb thing..When I weighed 195, I was eating
about 150 carbs a day and very little fat..and about 1,100 calories..And, I was wondering what I was doing wrong? It was all about the carbs..So, I cannot
eat that many carbs, either..30 is probably my target number for the day..But, they are mostly veggies/berries.

can someone give me a lists of fats that are good? which kinds of nuts are best, what kinds of foods I can snack on that are high in the good fats, but lower in protein?

Just off the top of my head:

Saturated fats are great..meats, dairy, eggs, butter..Olive oil and coconut oil are good, too..And grapeseed oil is good, too.

Cheese is a good snack..however, don't overdo it...

Best nuts are the ones with the least carbs..macadamias, almonds, walnuts, pecans. But...honestly...in moderation. IT is so easy to eat lots of nuts and not even be full..and the salt makes them so addictive..

Devilled eggs are good snacks, cheese sticks, SF jello with whipped cream is good...Homemade custards are wonderful for snacks too.

Hi Linda..

I used your percentages and lost a pound!!! I was eating around 1100 calories with the
amounts that you gave in your little math thing..

On the 30 thing.(that was a ballpark in my head number).... I can eat more than that..close to 40 if it is mostly veggies and some dairy. By your scale I can have between 38-45 whole carbs..which is a good thing..

I am trying to balance out each meal according to the percentages. I had a big salad from McDonald's (Caesar). I brought it home and added 2 Tbs. of olive oil instead of
using the sugary Caesar they gave me. That way the fat balanced out with the protein.

I always eat around 1100-1200 calories on this plan..And you know..I do need to pay attention to making sure each meal is balanced..and not under eat protein or fats or carbs.

Make sense?

Carolyn, were those 30-40 net carbs perhaps? If so, that would make a big difference.

Really enjoying the discussion from everyone. It is great to find a group of people who want to know the facts.

On Page 240, Dr. Groves says his percentages come from Dr. Jan Kwasniewski who"used a low-carb diet to treat patients with a wide rage of medical conditons for over 30 years..." He then states the Dr.'s ratios and translates them into percentages.

Personally, I have a target of about 30-40 grams of carbs comprising one slice of rye bread with my lunch and mid-sized a green salad with tomatoes and full fat dressing at dinner time. I also like to drink a cup of organic broth (3grams of carbs) before lunch or dinner with a tablespoon of coconut oil mixed it...it is very good, particularly with a healthy dollop of hot sauce!

I think you cannot really overeat on the protein or fat because it is very satisfying.

Welcome to my forum, Haylan! I agree that you can't overeat fat, but protein can be a problem in excess. It turns to glucose when the body can't use it which then gets stored as body fat. Not good. Fat--EAT UP! Protein--some, but not too much! Carbs--totally unnecessary except for the nutritional value that you get from non-starchy veggies and low-glycemic fruits.

You know. you make me realize I am so used to portion controls that I wasn't thinking about unlimited amounts of anything. LOL I think using a food journal really helped wrap my mind around that one!

So, I usually eat around 2 to 4 ounces of protein for lunch and around 6 ounces for dinner. What is new is adding in the fats in proportion.

You got it...NO MORE LEAN ANYTHING! Fat is your friend and will take care of so much. YOU CAN DO THIS!

Hey Bronwen,

Glad to see you posting. Have you had your bacon yet. Inside joke! HeHe. I just got back from working out. I'm having some problems with a knee right now so I'm having to take it easy. I think it's tendonitis from my sadistic trainer who is really hung up on squats.

Jimmy, thanks for your encouragement! I already feel better after just two days...it is the additionally animal fat, no question!

Melodie, no bacon YET...however, it is part of my game plan. Is there a part of my body that does not have something? Blew a knee out running which I should not have been doing in the first place--as Gimli says in Lord of the Rings: something to the effect, "We dwarfs are meant for short sprints not running long distsances."

I also have a very bad hip because of an auto accident when I was a teenager. So, I am looking at an entirely different fitness routine for the ensuing winter months. I am envious of your personal trainer.

I'm going out for lunch with a friend of mine today. She's taking me to a fish restaurant a friend of hers owners. I am looking forward to some tuna, which I could eat every day! Wish you were here. Can't wait till we can get together. What's great about that is that I have never been to Georgia and I imagine it is beautiful.

Hugs,

Bronwen

It is, I've got a big house, come see me!

I gotta see the Melodie mansion sometime!

Anytime Jimmy, we're just up the road! Must love dogs!!

Little ones, yes. Big ones, no.

They all weigh about 60 lbs. each. I don't really know why I live like this. L-O-V-E I guess. I cook 2 LC meals a day for them, sweep up enough hair to stuff a mattress once a week, and sometimes end up sleeping in the guest room if I'm the last one in bed, because I don't want to disturb the little darling who happens to be sleeping on my pillow. LOL The things we do for love!

Yeah! Barry fans!!!!

I <3 Barry Groves

Cute and welcome to our group!

Welcome Wifezilla! Okay, now I'm officially scared of one of our new members. Hee hee! It's good to have you at my forum and stick around a while...I think! JK!

Am I the only one struggling to get the percentages to work out at the end of the day? I am working at this, but have yet to get the percentages to average out correctly. I have either too much protein, or not enough carbs. I am able to get my fat levels pretty much okay. Tell me this gets easier.

Hey Dena, I wouldn't sweat percentages so much. They are a good guide to see where you should be, but don't feel like you have to be so hard and fast about them. But, to give you a tangible list of numbers as an example, try this on for size for your daily macronutrient totals:

FAT--120g
PROTEIN--60g
CARBS--20g

If your menu consisted of that breakdown for fat, protein, and carbs, then guess what your ratio would be--60/30/10. And that would be outstanding.

Or your intake could look like this:

FAT--100g
PROTEIN--80g
CARBS--20g

In this instance, your ratio would be 50/40/10. Again, NOT BAD! The point is NOT to obsess over this and to watch where you are. Keep your carbohydrates reduced, your protein moderate and your fat high and Dr. Groves would be so very proud of you.

BE ENCOURAGED, my friend. You're getting there...just DON'T LOSE HOPE!

Are you supposed to balance grams of fat and protein, or calories from fat and protein??? I have been going by calories from, and it is working for me, but maybe I'm doing it all wrong? Please tell me someone.
Rozi

Hey, you can't argue with what's working for you, Rozi! But generally you want your fat intake in GRAMS to be a greater percentage than you protein and carb intake combined. For example, my fat/protein/carb ratio is about 65/30/5. But if you can aim for at least 50/40/10, then that's a good start. YOU CAN DO THIS!!!!

Rozi,

I totally agree with Jimmy, if it ain't broke don't fix it. As to your question about percentages, just remember when you are working with the calculator an imbalance in one area will throw everything else off. If you are really having a hard time balancing your protein and your fat is adequate then you are probably not eating enough carbs. When you add more carbs to the mix (no more than 15%) it will improve the protein numbers. But I will echo Jimmy's advice again, don't get too hung up on the numbers. Groves is not a counter by any means. Remember it's "natural". When you've got the numbers right for you your appetite will let you know. Use the percentages as a guideline only. Hope this helps. Let us know how you are doing!

OMG - this thread is remarkable....thank you all for all your information - thoughts, Numbers - it takes one - well it is taking me, a lot of reading and percolating in the old brain to re-think all of the information from dieting for the past 45 years!!!!

I just keep reading and reading and reading - like a page-turner mystery novel and hopefully my brain is allowing the information in and changing the characters in the story - Carbs are the enemy - Fat is the Fairy God Mother......This is so foreign - give up lean meats....well I agree with others here....I have come to like my white meat chicken....

I believe the hardest thing is Charles and Jimmy and Melodie trying to chant for me - "this is simple" - when to me, it still is very confusing.....one really just wants a food list to follow at first.....I do believe that was the attraction to the KK diet - simple and successful - it is hard giving up a winning combo

But I page turn - forum read -and feel my head wrapping around some new ideas.....thank the Fairy Godmother for Linda's site - at least I take comfort there in the familiarity of recipes.....

I working at it - reading Atkins and Groves just came in the mail today.....Change - Life is filled with change - Hey Charles does this mean I can eat the cheesburger at the casino without the bread and feel ok about it?

I'm going to keep coming here until I get over the fear of Fat.....I only have 5 pounds to goal and want to make this a life choice - but welcoming the boggy-man, "Fat" as a friend - whoa -Halloween is just around the corner....

Hi everyone,

After re-reading this thread, I have to think, thank GOODNESS fat is 9 calories per gram. If it were the same as carbs, I'd have to eat twice as much, and that seems like too much! I am constantly amazed how the Theory of this way of eating matches with the Reality of the food, and the results are Health. Something finally makes sense in the dietary world! All the rest of my life, nothing I heard from doctors, nutritionists, or the media corresponded with anyone's reality, at least anyone I knew, and certainly not mine.

Curt