Hi, everyone! Clyde from Okla. City here. My girlfriend and I have been on Kimkins for the last 5 weeks, and so far, I've lost 37 pounds with no side effects. Okay, she's signed up for it, and like any ol' dog, I'll eat any food that's put in my bowl....

I've also recently discovered the Livin La Vida Lowcarb podcast on iTunes, and have been listening to all the back episodes. They have been particularly informative, helpful and inspiring.

It wasn't until I started reading Jimmy's blog that I realized that there's the equivalent of a civil war going on at Kimkins. What's it all about? A lot of it seems to be personal attacks against Kimmer's character and/or behaviors not related to the diet. Am I wrong? I personally don't give a rat's patootie if she cheats on her taxes or whatever. I'm looking for a foodplan I can permanently live with, not wanting to change my religion.

I am a grizzled, haggard, burned out diet veteran. I've tried Atkins (new), South Beach, Michael Thurmond, Weight Watchers, Caveman, Eat Right for Your type, and the rest. My problem has been I'd lose thirty pounds or so very quickly, burn out on the food plan, and had back to my old, unhealthy, Standard American Diet (SAD). I haven't had this problem with Kimkins so far. Usually, by this time on a diet, I'd be ready to either run to the bakery, or contemplate sticking my head in a noose if I had one more piece of broiled chicken breast Is there something with Kimkins that I need to know?

Oh, one of the things I do like about Kimkins, and why I think it's successful, is that it tells me up front that I'm not allowed to have sugary, carb loaded foods, no matter what the fiber content or whatever is. After a couple of weeks, the physical craving for doughnuts passed, and I know that it will start all over again if I have just one fritter, no matter how much weight I have lost. 12 steppers have a saying that "one is too many, and a thousand is not enough". I think it's the reason why I have failed on the other diets; I'd have one three point dessert, or sweet potato, or old fashioned oatmeal on the respective plans, and I couldn't fight off the cravings again.

Sorry for rambling on. I'd appreciate your experience, strength and hope.

Good Morning Clyde and welcome. I am ex-Kimkins but left a month or so ago. You are right as far as her personal life goes, "who cares". The problem is not the "posted diet". It's the diet within a diet. It's the encouragement to eat less than 1000 calories a day, sometimes as few as 300 or 400 calories, and the encouragement towards laxative abuse. A lot of ladies are losing their hair, experiencing gall bladder problems, and other things atributable to the very low calorie intake.

I can only say if you're doing Kimkins, then do it with a little bit of common sense and not to the extremes that were promoted on her boards. If you're doing what basically amounts to Atkins and watching calories at the same time then there's no problem.

Others may disagree with me, but that's my take. Congrats on the 37 lbs., that's great, and on keeping your sugar cravings under control. Best of luck to you, and post often.

There are two aspects to the current Kimkins controversy. One is the fraud part (including doubt about K's claims to have lost weight herself amongst other things). You said you weren't interested in that side of things, so I won't elaborate - there's info out there if you want to look.

The other concern is that the diet as written is very low in calories (and there have been reports of people being encourage to go even lower in practice), and such diets have been associated with a variety of health problems. Not everybody who eats that way will have problems, but many do. Some problems may not show up immediately.

If you're not actually doing Kimkins as such, but just following some of here advice, such as avoiding all sugary foods, while still getting adequate levels of fat (and essential fatty acids), enough calories, and a good range of other micronutrients, then you're probably fine.

Kimkins Review

That link should be helpful if you want to know more.

I definitely think it's possible to learn good and helpful things from people and organizations that don't share my life and world view, even bad people and bad organizations.

I used to say, "I'll take the wheat and blow away the chaff." Guess I need a new metaphor. :-)

However, for me, there's more to life and ethical decision-making than _my individual weight loss and my individual interests_. I'm just not an individualist; I live in a community of people and want to take my little bit of responsibility for my community. I just don't feel comfortable supporting a site that takes people's money for a "lifetime membership," gives dangerous advice, and then keeps their money while booting them out for expressing disagreement or questions, often on an apparent one-strike policy.

For me, it's not just about me; it's about the health and safety of the community, about the ethical treatment of that community.

I would also be concerned about the lack of a maintenance program. The diet didn't work for Kimmer long-term; she lost a lot of weight, she gained back more than she lost, and now her lean body mass and metabolism are lower than ever.

Low-cal dieting not only causes a significant loss of lean body mass, but it also creates hormonal changes that predispose a person to gaining weight after the diet is over. Low-cal diets are well-known for extreme success followed by extreme weight gain.

Kimmer's own experience on her plan--lost the weight easily, gained it all back plus more--is typical for low calorie diet plans. They've been researched time and time again, and this is the usual long-term result.

HOWEVER, I'm an optimist and I believe that you **can** make it work for you, by taking what works and making careful changes as you need to make them, to make it work long term and by preserving and building your lean body mass.

Wow. Thanks for the advice so far. I've been alternating between the original kimkins foodplan (I HATE the word 'diet'!) and the Kimmer Experiment. I've also been walking 30 minutes to 1 hour every morning, and taking a multivitamin and other nutritional supplements. I think this is what you mean by the posted foodplans.

3 or 4 hundred calories?!? That's madness!!! I'm learning that when I eat the right stuff, I can eat when I'm hungry and stop when I'm not. I'm also not 'going overboard' on the diet, and agonizing on what kind of salad dressing to use, or obessing whether I'm eating 3 or 5 ounces of a chicken breast. I'm in this for the long haul, and I'm not going to punish myself on this foodplan.

I'm also trying NOT to get on a scale 2 or 3 times a day. My weight can flucuate as much as 2-3 pounds per day, and I'm guessing that's probably water rentention and a sodum issue. As long as I'm eating the 'right stuff' and not the 'white stuff', I can let go and not worry about my daily weight.

If my results slow down or stop, I'll honestly examine what I've been eating and make adjustments. Found out recently during a plateau that cheese has been slowing my progress down, so out it went and the weight loss then continued.

I guess I'll 'take what I can use, and leave the rest' from Kimkins. Thanks again for everyone's advice and encouragement!

Oh, Valerieslivingbooks, one quick question. I figure that if I get to my goal weight I could use South Beach or a similar program for maintainence. Any advice, anyone?

I'd think South Beach would be OK (though it's not my personal favourite, because I don't agree with their dislike of saturated fat). Or Atkins, Protein Power (both advise on making a gradual increase in your carb levels as you approach maintenance) or Schwarzbein (which isn't quite as low carb, but addresses a lot of the issues of metabolic healing which are likely to be of concern after eating very low calories for any time).

The main thing I'd caution is that eating too few calories while you lose weight appears to mean you have to stay at low calorie levels to maintain the weight loss. There are lots of web-sites around that will calculate an approximate BMR (Basal Metabolic Rate), which gives you the amount of fuel your body needs just for routine metabolic work (like keeping your heart and brain working). On top of that, you'll burn more calories depending on how active you are. To lose weight healthily, a safe approach is to eat at least as much as your BMR, but less than your total calorie consumption. I remember a blog by Regina Wilshire (Weight of the Evidence) that set this out very nicely - I'll see if I can dig it out.Weight of the Evidence

Edit:
Here are links to a couple of the articles
Weight Loss Stalled by Low Calorie Diets and
Calories Count - In More Ways than You Think

But don't take my word for it - or Regina's. The hard truth is there are so many sources of advice around these days, that we all have to do some research and find an answer we can live with. Good luck .

Hi Clyde from Oklahoma,

I do not have a lot of experience but I have alot of hope and some strength. I lost 34 lbs on Atkins 4 years ago then started doing "net" carbs and eating things that triggered cravings and eventually caved.

After reading about Mary (cartbabe) in People and the WW magazine I decided to give low carb another try and joined Kimkins on 7/30. I've lost 23 lbs in 6 weeks. Then all of the controversy started. My issue (besides the extreme low calories and laxatives) was that if she is misrepresenting herself and has not kept the weight off then I cannot support that forum. I did Kimkins my way . . . probably more of Atkins with calorie and carb counting. And I will continue that way as it is working for me. (Altho I currently seem to be stalled )

As a recovering alcoholic I use

Clyde - I agree that Kimkins might have been helpful in alerting us not to be so trustful of the net carb counts, but the real danger there was the low calories and the low fat - or the K/E plan that is ONLY lo fat protien, no veggies or anything, not to mention all the fasts and laxative recommendations. Anyway, let me give you an example of the dangers, one of the neat people I met over there is Esmi - I got banned today, so I can't give you a link, but if you go to the Challenges forum and look for the 30s and 40s back in shape (something like that) thread, read her posts. She works out 2 hours per day (if you go back you'll see that her monthly exercise minutes are crazy) but she is eating almost nothing, and she has stopped losing weight, but she just found out today that she has lost 7 lbs of muscle mass in the last month! That's what happens when you eat lean protein and no fat, your body doesn't burn body fat, it burns muscle. I'm really worried for her because she is soooo Kimkins committed, but her health is in danger. I tried to PM her, but right after I did I got banned, so I'm guessing my message was probably erased too. Any of you who still have access, please try to help her! I'm concerned.

Hi Second Thoughts!

How long ya got?

Hi Clyde,

13 1/2 years for alcohol; 44 days for carbs!

Robin

Robin M:

Wonderful! 7 for alcohol, 60 days plus for carbs...

Doing this is helping me recover my original addiction (sugar & carbs). I've been pondering the fact that alcohol is basically a form of highly processed sugar.

Hi Clyde,

I alternated back and forth between Kimkins and K/E for about 3 1/2 months. I was so pleased that it was the first diet that ever worked for me. It seemed so easy to me after the cravings were gone.

What I didn't realize at the time was that it was eliminating the carbs (including the net carbs) that gave me the desired weight loss. Not eliminating the fat and keeping calories low.

I hit goal in August, and I've been maintaining for about 6 weeks. I got on the scale this morning and discovered that I lost an additional two pounds ... on maintenance!

My maintenance plan has been to slowly add back low starch veggies (no potatos, rice, flour, rice, etc.) and increase my fat so that I've slowly brought my calories into a normal range. When I was doing strict Kimkins, I was losing about 1-2 pounds per week. And now with a lot more fat and calories (on KK I was around 800 cals) I'm still losing.

That in itself tells me that what everyone on this site is saying is true. You don't need to be afraid of fat. But ... be very afraid of the starchy carbs! And super-low calories aren't going to help either.

Also ... just as an aside ... I didn't experience any of the side-effects of the KK diet that others have reported. But I do agree with everyone else that it can be pretty risky business if you follow the "plan behind the plan."

Margarita

14 years for Alcohol here... several days sugar free

Clyde & Jenna,



7 years and 14 years . . . . that is great!

Clyde, I definitely agree with the connection between alcohol addiction aand sugar addiction.


Margarita,

Wow, 5 years alcohol for me, 90 days carb/sugar free. I quit smoking and gained a sugar addiction and 80 lbs. This is the last vice...uh hopefully.

Ritmeyer, I gained my sugar addiction when I quit drinking. I was never much of a candy/sweet eater until then! Smoking-I need to quit. I was thinking that after I had another month or 2 of low carb and exercising. We are going on vacation in December and I want to have quit by then.

Maybe all of us former drinkers should start a support group?

Kudos to everyone on whatever length of sobriety you have! I was married to an alcoholic for 11 years, and when he quit he was hooked on sugar (never touched it otherwise).

There is definitely a connection here. You have to cut out both alcohol and sugar/carbs in order to beat this thing (IMHO).

You all can do it, and there is help. A lot of the 12-step principles apply to sugar addiction as well. Or whatever else is working for your sobriety.

KUTGW!!!

P.S. I'm coming to the conclusion I have a DEBT addiction! I'm attending a 12-step meeting on Sunday. Please keep me in your thoughts and prayers!!! Got my power shut off Tuesday (back on now). I'm totally over my head in debt... it's terrible!!!!

Robin-

Yeah, maybe we should. Alot of my friends in the program I am in have issues with food. I never had a problem w/ food or weight until I quit smoking, but one of my pigeons has gained 45 lbs since she got sober...4 months. There has GOT to be something that. I know the whole addictive personality thing, but the sugar thing is interesting.

Good luck with quiting smoking. I literally did it one minute at a time. Oh and stuffing my face with yummy ice cream. You can do it.

Clyde ~
As far as the Kimkins issue I can only give you my experience. I started back in June and loss almost 30 pounds in 2 months even with a couple of slip ups (cheat days) thrown in. But here's the thing, what i found is that when I went off the "diet" for my vacation that it was as if my body "needed" the fats and carbs and all the stuff I wasn't giving into (veggies). Since my vacation I have had a very difficult time getting back to eating healthy and I feel as though this WOE (kimkins) sets people up to fail because they have no way of maintaining once they reach a goal weight.
I don't know anything about Atkins but am seriously looking into doing that instead of Kimkins once I can get myself back on track.
I CAN say that with Kimkins there was one really great thing that happened to me....I found a better support system than I have had in the past on WW, e-diets, sparkpeople...etc. I think that the people on Kimkins were desperate to lose weight just like I am and we can relate.
The Kimkins diet is very appealing because it promises FAST weightloss with no side effects. Of course I did have side effects but was under the impression that anyone could do this diet and that it was healthy. The home page (I think) says it is great for people with high blood pressure, diabetes, etc... But I have IBS and the lack of veggies and fiber in my diet caused me some serious gastrointestinal discomforts not to mention the nausea from being backed up for so long since laxatives never helped me the way they did for others.
I am glad that you are doign well on the "diet" I just hope that you can beat the cheat. In my group it happened often that someone would fall off the wagon and it would take a while to get back on.
I have now gained almost all but about 10 pounds of what I lost on Kimkins and am discouraged because I have lost that feeling of success that I first had with the program. I need to find an alternative to Kimkins because of my health condition so hopefully Atkins will be a good option for me.
Congrats on the weightloss. KUTGW! I hope this helps you figure out what is best for you.

Welcome Dragonfly! I'm happy you are here.

I was thinking about this and wondered if we should set up a thread for anyone with an addiction . . . . . . then realized that could be just about all of us as many of us also have carb addiction!

Dragonfly, Atkins is a great WOE . . . . much healthier than Kimkins, IMHO.

Thank you Jimmy. I like this site a lot. I am sdo glad that soon2bslim invited me to join her on a new SAHM group. It is so nice to have others to "lean on". Thank you for such a wonderfully supportive site.

That makes my day to hear, Dragonfly! Stick around a while and make some new friends, too.

Glamgirl and all,

There has been some data collection that shows 5 to 20 percent of people with a successful significant weight loss develop gambling alchole or shopping addictions. The thought is there is a link with compulsive behaviors. Here is the web site of one article...not the best sorry. I couldn't find the one fromjust a few months ago but fyi anyway.

www.azcentral.com/health/diet/articles/0718wsj-addiction-transfer18-ON.html - 62k -

I do believe that our food addiction is just part of our addictive personalities. Seems that I switched my addictions with each one I gave up. 25 years ago today, I gave up alcohol and other drugs. Gave up smoking 26 years ago, too. Never got into gambling for fear of becoming addicted to that. But food has always been a battle for me. Wonder what I'll be addicted to when I lose the weight? Sex? Boy, my hubby would love that one!!!!

Carolia

Hi Carolia,

I, too, have seemed to trade one addiction for the other over the years.

LMBO!