Hi Everyone!

Thanks to Jimmy for adding this forum!

I'd like to collect people's experiences with caffeine while in ketosis or in the induction phase of Adkins, where your carbs are 20g or below. Please post your experience! I realize that some people don't want to "use a drug" on principle, but this topic is for facts and experience, not judgements.

Now, for my fellow "diet geeks", here's why I want to do this "study":

I currently include caffeine in my diet not because I'm not willing to give up a crutch. I include it because of the positive articles and books I've read about it, which seem to support its use. But, if science says that it is harmful, or works against my low-carb lifestyle, I would give it up. Unfortunately, I have been unable to find any science, positive or negative, for caffeine use in relation to the low-carb lifestyle.

Here's the best I've found on the web, NON-low-carb:

- Caffeine causes release of adrenaline, which causes the liver to
break down glycogen, causing a temporary increase of blood sugar, which
causes insulin to be released.

Now, don't we get rid of glycogen early on in induction? Does this mean we don't get insulin (our enemy?) realeased? I cannot get an answer.

Here is what Jimmy found out from Atkins expert Jackie Eberstein:

"I am not aware of any studies that have looked at caffeine and ketosis ... Caffeine for someone with an unstable blood sugar can cause the blood sugar roller coaster regardless of ketosis ... Some people are more sensitive than others."

So, if you find any more information on the science of this, please post this also!

Thanks to you all, and again, thanks Jimmy!

Curt

My experience with caffeine:

My body weight is 160 lbs.

I get my caffeine from soda mostly, and coffee less frequently. I've looked up how much caffeine are in my drinks, so that's where the mg's come from.

I get about 150mg in the morning, 150mg noonish, and maybe 200mg in the afternoon. I stop all caffeine 6 hours before bedtime, since I've found this is the amount of time that allows me to fall right asleep.

If I exceed 500mg in a day, I do find it adds to my stress level. Higher stress has been known to throw people off diets, and I definitely used to eat for emotional reasons, so I have to be careful.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it! If I think of anything else, I'll post it.

Curt

THANK YOU, Curt! Caffeine has never bothered me personally, but I try to steer clear of it just in case.

Those 'adrenaline' effects of caffeine that you mention, effect every single user of this drug profoundly and dramatically the world over! That's about 90% of the earths population, probably more! These effects appear as subtle but are in fact, far reaching and life altering just like 'hybrid' carbohydrates and speed. Were talking the 'mind' and Psyche and spirit of man! 'Profound effects'!

Caffeine Database: Lookup Amounts For Various Drinks

http://www.energyfiend.com/the-caffeine-database/

Carey, you made me laugh LOLLOLLOL!

Well...I was glad you asked it cuz I was thinking it was just me that didn't have a clue what Tom meant. And then with his response, I still don't have a clue, which makes understanding a lot of his posts difficult, since he refers to the 'hybrid' term a lot.

I know what you mean.

Tom,

You have never given an accurate description of Hypbrid carbs.

If you really want to get the message out, please educate us what this term means, or means to you.

What do you mean 'hybrid carbs'???

http://livinlavidalocarb.blogspot.com/2007...completely.html

Tom wrote
""The Bunnell Farm said...
I had what I thought was a compulsive eating disorder for years and I was 200# plus overweight for many many years. My health was failing me at age 61 when after years of searching I discovered by searching on the internet that I was addicted to sugar in the form of fruit and vegetables and grains and leguimes and dairy. All (hybrid carbohydrates). That was a little over one year ago. It took me several tries to get all the way off from all these sugars and on to eating only meat and low glycemic vegetables full time. I have lost about 40# in the last six months and I feel better and better as this weight loss and sugar free life progresses. I no longer have a compulsive eating disorder and I no longer binge. I no longer have hypoglycemia either. I will eat this way for the rest of my life and I will gradually lose the remaining 140# plus over the next couple of years. I am never hungry and I enjoy my meals a lot. Water, air, sunshine, food and rest and family and friends is all I have in me. I consume no stimulants or drugs of any kind. Water, food and sunshine and the air that I breath. That's all that's in me.(like every other creature on this planet earth). It's a new lease in life. I wish this for everybody. I wouldn't trade it for anything, not just the weight loss but the being stimulant free, that's the key. Sugar is a stimulant. My mother addicted me just like every other mother out there. We didn't know any better. We used to dump batteries in the ocean and build factories on river banks so we could dispose of the waste. We would burn the rest. We oiled our dirt roads with used motor oil to keep the dust down and we used DDT and arsenic to kill bugs. We didn't know any better. Now we do and so do you.
>>>
SO this part<<<I was addicted to sugar in the form of fruit and vegetables and grains and leguimes and dairy. All (hybrid carbohydrates). >>>
I aassuming its the way these Carbs bind and raisse the glycemic scale?????
sandi

I assumed that what Tom meant by "hybrid carbs" was that the fruits and vegetables that we eat now have all been bred to contain more sugar than they ever used to have in the past. This has caused us to get used to everything tasting sweet which leads to us eating more and more sugar.

Gotcha! Thanks.

Way off-topic, but too much protein without plenty of fat has the same effect on the body as an excess of hybrid carbs and refined carbs does.

Dietary protein in excess of bodily needs is converted to pure sugar with a strong insulin response and worsening of metabolic syndrome.

If incoming fat doesn't provide enough energy for basic needs, then incoming protein + lean body mass (protein) are also broken down and converted to pure sugar. Strong insulin response. Worsening of metabolic syndrome.

These effects become more and more pronounced, the lower the caloric intake goes.

Low fat/low calorie diets just create more of the same sugar cycle, even if they are low carb. Not only that, but they are very inefficient when it comes to *fat* loss. More weight loss doesn't necessarily mean more fat loss. (Every part of the body has a weight.)

Tom, HFCS is sugar with a doule whammy.

Valerie, It's good to bring those facts up. A lot of long time low carbers are not aware that some of the protein you eat can be turned to sugar.
It's an important fact and crucial to one's success.

Another thing is, it probably kicks that old argument in the head about low carb and damaging your kidneys. If you're doing that much protein, you're probably doing it wrong anyway.

Diamondwife,

You are right. There are a vast range of "low carb" plans out there and that doesn't include all the "tweaks". We are all biochemically different and add to that we are overweight for different reasons as well, which goes against the notion that one diet is right for everyone. It's just not.

And don't forget, excess potassium on a low-carb diet is converted by your uvula to bubblegum, and clogs your right elbow!

Doesn't anyone want to talk about my topic: CAFFEINE?

Hi Melodie!

No apology necessary! I only hoped my post might nudge the thread back to Caffeine. I find I always take a risk when posting humor like that, that someone might think you are really upset, and "smiley's" don't always work to show it's good-natured.

Thank you for your input, and for mentioning the blog, which I hadn't checked yet tonight (busy day). Wow! A post like that, if read by many, can really help show we're serious about getting the facts about healthy eating, not just the fanatic, crazy dieters we're sometimes made out to be. Kudos to Jimmy!

Thanks for being a great resource, as I've seen in your posts all over the Forum!

Curt

Thank you Curt. It will be interesting to see what kind of response you will get to the questions you have posed since between this forum and Jimmy's blog thousands will see it.

Ketosis is an interesting thing and seems to be unique to each person, and I might add changes from time to time. For myself I find that the longer I'm doing low carb the easier it is to maintain and to recover even when eating more carbs. It's almost like your system does a shift after awhile.

Great article on coffee sj! Thanks for posting the link.

Coffee, at least for me, is a 'double-edged-sword' of sorts. I love the stuff! But it seems I do have somewhat of a sensitivity to the caffeine, or possibly some chemical in coffee. Allow me to explain. I have what's called 'Essential Tremor' in my hands, which is a benign form of tremor that causes inconveniences and frustrations in trying to perform routine daily tasks with your hands, due to the shaking. Mine is still manageable at this point, and I am very thankful.

Caffeine seems to intensify the shaking, so I have always tried to limit the amount of coffee I drink. More recently, two weeks ago to be exact, I quit drinking coffee altogether trying to achieve even more steadiness in my hands. I have seen a minor improvement, but I'm not sure it's enough for me to give up coffee altogether.

You see, I've tried numerous decaf coffees and some of them have the same 'tremor intensification' effect. So, I'm not really sure the caffeine is the total culprit here.

So far as weight loss is concerned, I actually think quitting coffee may have actually stalled me a bit in my loss. I was losing about 2 to 2-1/2 pounds per week and the first week I went without coffee I ended up with a big fat ZERO weight loss. This week I've lost maybe 1-1/2 pounds. So, I'm seriously reconsidering the coffee issue myself. I'm sitting here now, at 6:30 am thinking of going out for a big cup of premium coffee!

When I did low-carb in 2003-2004 I definitely had no problem with coffee causing stalls or slow downs in weight loss. However, this is strictly one of those YMMV issues!

By the way, this was such an interesting topic that I decided to blog about it today.

I mean this kindly, but not everyone who uses alcohol in moderation becomes addicted. Not everyone who uses strawberry shortcake in moderation becomes addicted.

You made choices that _did_ lead to addictions to numerous substances, and you are now working toward freedom from your addictions. That's your path, and it sounds like you are experiencing some wonderful healing so far.

But is there any possibility that part of your healing could involve taking responsibility for _your own choices_ that brought you to this end? Perhaps recognizing that, in fact, not _everyone_ shares with you the addictions and uncontrolled eating that took you captive will give you *more* strength as well as appreciation for the real differences among people?

In reality, there are many, many people who can take or leave the alcohol, the shortcake, the low carb treats, and the coffee. Your addictions do not make everyone else an addict.

Wishing you continued and incredible success on your journey....

Valerie,

I guess everyone has their views on addictions. In my opinion, not everyone has an addictive personality and if you do it's usually global meaning that if you're easily addicted to one thing, you're probably addicted to others as well. I tried to smoke a couple of times when I was younger, because I thought it looked cool (go figure) and you know what as hard as I tried, I couldn't make myself like cigarettes. They were the most disgusting thing I've ever tried. Yet many others have done the same and gotten hooked. Cigarettes are known to be addictive and yet not everyone who partakes becomes addicted. Same with sugar. But that's just my opinion and everybody'rs got one.

You're only addicted to something if you cannot walk away from something in an instant without having a total meltdown.

or it could be said that your only addicted if you know it!

Maybe it's just me...but I thought we were talking about the effects [or lack thereof] of caffeine on ketosis.

What's been your experience with this? Has it stalled you or helped you?

Like I said in a previous post in this thread, it seems to have helped me with weight loss. I didn't do a purely scientific study on it, but it just seemed I stalled when I quit caffeine [coffee].

By the way, I went out for some real caffeinated coffee this morning after two weeks without drinking it. I must say, I rather enjoyed it!

Ron...I wonder if the *stall* you experienced without your caffeine is related to the diuretic effect of the caffeine. Without the coffee (caffeine), your body probably wasn't releasing the usual amounts of fluid.

As for the tremor effect with the decaf, from what I've read, some (most?) decaffeinated coffees still contain trace amounts of caffeine, and if you're highly sensitive, regarding your tremors, it might be enough to still affect you.

For me personally, I drank ice tea all thru my weight loss, and I used to drink diet coke. I've never been a coffee drinker. I have since eliminated the diet coke (and Sunkist orange), and cut back to the occasional (couple of times a month) ice tea. I never noticed the caffeine affected my weight loss either way. Now, since I don't drink it regularly, it really plays havoc with my sleep tho.

I occassionally have caffiene, but as a general rule try to avoid it when possible. I can't say that it's ever hurt or hindered my weight loss, but I prefer not to have it, just in case.

It has zero effect on my diet. Never has.

Not only does caffeine not stall me, it's actually quite helpful. I often quit using any for random stretches just so that I do not end up addicted. My meticulous journalling clearly shows my results are much better in the weeks where I am using caffeine compared to the ones where I don't.

IMO, All of the research I've seen that comes out against caffeine is dodgy at best. The claim that makes the rounds in LC circles is that it raises blood sugar levels, and they usually have links to studies that show this. I always question whether the people actually READ the study they posted. All the ones I have seen show the blood sugar being tested when both caffeine and pure glucose are administered to the subjects. DUH! Pure glucose, of course their blood sugar was raised! The study tells us literally nothing about caffeine.

I contacted one of the nutritionists at Atkins last year when they were advising against caffeine, and asked point blank: "are there any caffeine/blood sugar studies that aren't rigged?". Her answer was that there are none that she's aware of either.

Bodybuilders are the masters of body recomposition, and they openly embrace caffeine (and other stimulants) to aid in fat loss. It helps you with increased energy levels and increased concentration so you can work out harder/longer. Caffeine is also an appetite suppressant (again, I've logged this enough times to see a marked difference), so it helps a lot with your actual diet as well. I can tell when I've been drinking too much diet coke and not enough water when I just forget to eat.

Damn, Bryan, you rock! I couldn't have said it better myself. Welcome to the lab, and thanks for your input!

And thanks to everyone else. The diuretic effect mentioned above is also suspect. No one ever posts a study that proves this, and I have a book that says it's fooey.

Please keep adding your input everybody!

Curt

I think that all of these caffeine endorsers should all post there lifetime weights with all of there current and past and present weight losses and everything in the form of a chart that is easily readable for lets say the last ten years and current until right now. I think the 'Kimkins' of this world are many and that there promotions of there addictions are many. A lot of people are following the advice of these authoritative parties and are unwittingly being influenced by these carbohydrate and sweetener and caffeine addicts! They got recipes and statistics and they know everything and of course we can't see there present or past waistline or view there life and they 'talk' really well and they are for sure not going to let anybody sway them into the pain and suffering involved in breaking these addictions. It's called 'denial'. Denial and bring everybody down with you. ie, Kimmer! It's important to note that these 'lifetime dieters' mean well. They can't help it! They are addicts! Addictions are powerful forces! Just listen!

Hey Tom,

How's the harvest going?

Rained out for two days but my truck is running good. It's going to be a weak harvest on our end but I'll still net some thousands before it's over and get my equipment upgrades and my bills caught up so that I can fight this fight. Your comment was nice to hear, thanks. Are you short girls fat! or were you once fat?

Hey Tom,

You rock too! I agree, we need facts, facts, and more facts to get rid of the hearsay. The main thing I hope from this thread is to see what happens to people when they use caffeine in ketosis. In another thread, I agreed with you that there is a penalty to be paid for use of caffeine. It'd actually be great if you wanted to add a "study" here in the Empirical Data topic for people to post their mental/spiritual effects, addiction to, and withdrawal from caffeine to balance the postings about the positive physical effects some report here. Either way, your input is valuable, thanks!

It's my belief that I can never change anyone's mind, only their perspective, and that the most powerful way we have in this world to influence others is by example.

Curt