Jimmy, I am sorry, but I am very disappointed in Anthony Colpo's response to muscle fatigue while low carbing and exercising.

Due to my blood sugar history and genetics, I know if I ate as many carbs as he recommends before exercising, I'd probably go into full-blown diabetes.

Jimmy, I've been reading blogs and educating myself - I am curious what Mary Vernon would say to his recommendation of so many carbs before an exercise routine. Do you think you can ask for her opinion? I feel this is something that would really interest those of us with blood sugar issues (and I know there's A LOT of us out there...)I can't be alone in being astounded by his recommendation... Thanks Jimmy!

Thanks inspirit. I think Anthony Colpo is referring to competitive exercise, not general fitness that most people undertake. I can tell you what Mary Vernon would say...eat low-carb and you will spontaneously want to wiggle and move your body. Feel free to send her a note at her blog and she'll respond to you. I would but I'm on vacation right now.

I was also taken by aback by Colpo's recommendations. I think you'd have to work out pretty hard to burn off 75-150g carbs in one session.

I usually eat a few carbs BEFORE working out and then another small meal afterwards. But then again, I don't lift competitively. I just want my muscles to stay toned and to force my body to target fat.

When I first started working out with weights on low carbs, I felt like crap. Now, my body does okay, though as I said, I usually try to eat about 10 carbs before a workout session. Basically, you target a significant portion of your daily carbs towards your workout session. If you eat after a workout, I think Colpo is right that you should try to have something immediately.

I tried to take his advice today by eating something after. Before my workout today, I only had a half a turkey burger (3 carbs) and 1 square of a Chocoperfection bar (3 carbs). I made a stop at Publix on my way home, so I didn't eat for nearly an hour after the workout, which wasn't my intention, but I felt fine.

Jimmy and Fit, thank you very much for your responses.

Yes Jimmy, he certainly can't be talking about the general public with those recommendations!

Fit, you seem to be doing just fine exercising and eating low carb! Since I'll never in my life come close to competitive training, I'll just happily stick with what I'm doing. Fit, glad I'm not alone when my jaw dropped at those carb recommendations!

Jimmy, I think I will write to Mary Vernon just to get her opinion (which I think you probably summed up pretty nicely). But I see her blog has been inactive since May. I sure hope it's still up and running.

She should answer...try Regina Wilshire or Cassandra Forsythe, too. Links are at my http://lowcarblinks.blogspotcom.com site.

Thank you Jimmy.

I have "shopped" low carb forums, and I have to say, this is the best one I've ever been on, and I'm sticking with this one.

I love all the forum topics/selections. There's something for everyone. Thank you so much for starting this much-needed forum.

Thank you for those kind words! We just need a place for low-carb community to fit into and I'm thrilled that so many have found a home here so quickly.

I didn't see any mention of what to eat BEFORE or DURING a workout in Anthony Colpo's response. He only talked about what to eat AFTERWARDS:

Feel free to post your comments about this at my blog. Anthony Colpo should respond.

I am a runner and I totally disagree with Anthony Colpo's recommendations for sugar. I believe that the late Olympian Gordon Pirie (who ate no sugar or its products) said it best:

"The goal of training is to race, not more training." "More and more [training] will turn a champ into a chump."

The studies that Colpo cited, are very similar to the arguments made in "Paleo for Athletes" The premise is that the hunter-gatherer, who could indeed perform great feats of endurance, had to back off for a day after an exhausting hunt, and then resume the next day. So the glycogen replacement theory is supposed to re-energize the hunter-gatherer to speed his recovery. They further speculate that the hunter-gatherer, despite superior health, speed and strength, would not have been able to compete with today's Olympian because his glycogen reserves would have been lower. Therefore he lacked the fuel injection of high glycemic carbs to restore muscle glycogen concentrations following hard exercise.

I argue that all this proves is that he couldn't train each day as a sugar-loaded modern athlete can. However, if you catch him a day later, he could certainly compete with the best of them.

The Paleo folks, like Colpo and others, want to manipulate the diet to increase intramuscular triglyceride. The problem is that the athlete has attempted to adapt the science to his training regimen rather than adapting himself to the science. The science says, as Mr. Colpo showed with Phinney's research, is that glycogen stores remain largely unaffected by aerobic exercise, and even intense exercise lasting about 90 minutes, although this varies by the individual. It just takes longer for the body to refuel glycogen stores which seemingly makes the high-fat diet undesireable for training. No one races a complete marathon at the highest VO2. Everyone who knows anything about distance running knows that races are fought in surges.

Let's consider overtraining for a moment:

Overtraining causes decreased performance and chronic fatigue. It decreases appetite for hours afterward. Chronic fatigue has been shown to decrease one's immune response. Does this sound familiar?

To combat this, they want us to consume more sugar which we already know causes some of these same symptoms. Well, it's okay because it's in the post exercise window. How about let's take some more time for recovery and then skip the sugar? Just because people on a sugar high can recover faster, that doesn't indicate that their "performance" is better in a race. That just means they can complete more workouts. You can also inject your body with steriods and produce the same affect. What about health? Recent science seems to overwhelmingly indicate that more training doesn't automatically equal better performance. In fact, it may impair performance.

How many world class athletes have severe health problems? Alberto Salazar, Grete Waitz? These people all had or have cancer or bad hearts. How about Amby Burfoot, an accomplished marathoner and editor of Runner's World. He has high triglycerides, as he noted in his blog. This month's Runner's World reports on a statement by the American Heart Association that adds an asterisk to the notion that more exercise can be beneficial to a person's heart. They point out that it's also possible that vigorous exercise can exacerbate an existing condition and even cause death in "susceptible" persons.

Many studies have shown that people are training far too hard for athletic competition. The FIRST program for marathon training encourages athletes to train 50 percent less and those runners have reduced their personal records in marathons by astounding numbers. How about Bill Bowerman, the legendary coach at Oregon? He demands that his runners embrace his hard/easy philosophy or risk being banned from competition. Why? Because he knows that overtraining will adversely affect his athletes.

The father of interval training was an individual named Waldemar Gerschler. The greatest track and field stars were trained under his system, which has been maligned over the years for causing many injuries and destroying runners. Many have erroneously taken or have been given credit for his work. One of our greatest runners was Steve Scott, the former World Record holder, who was trained under Gerschler's system. The conclusions that Gershler and Professer Hans Reindall reached, was that the improvement comes from the interval, not the run, which was of secondary importance. Consider the following quote from Gershler from the publication "World Sports:"

"Athletes are often uncertain about what distances they should cover in training, and how fast and how often they should run them. Again and again, THEY TEND TO GO TOO FAST IN TRAINING, especially at shorter distances (writes Waldemar Gerschler). Winter training can be arranged simply yet effectively if two distances are concentrated on - 100 and 200 metres - with jogged intervals between them. A sprinter capable of running 100m inside 11 secs might reasonably take 12-13 secs for his training runs. A 400m man under 50 secs might cover 100m in 14-15 secs; the 800m man under 1:53 and a 1,500m runner under 3:50 in 14-15 secs; the longer distance runner inside 14:30 or 10,000m inside 31 mins in 16-17 secs. The jogged interval 100m should take 30 secs if the athlete is highly trained, 45 secs if in the intermediate stage and 60 secs if he is a beginner. These times may seem quite modest but from the training angle they are rather fast - in fact I am sure many will need to make them more modest still. The time of the run is of only secondary importance; more important is the timing of the intervals, and it is vital to adhere to these. At the beginning of an athlete's training his effort should not be forced; growing fatigue indicates it is time to stop. But after three or four months a good athlete who has been training four or five times a week should cope easily with 40 repetitions. [...] It should be remembered that the athlete himself can find what suits him best, by personal experience and observation. An athlete not being trained by a coach should set himself a long term target. "

Intervals are one of the most powerful tools for training in athletics. They are responsible for the greatest advances in fitness in the shortest possible time. They are much more effective than Long Slow Distance (LSD). Note how many times Gershler notes that growing fatigue indicates it is time to stop.

Gordon Pirie was unique in that he competed in three Olympiads. Do you realize that means he was able to sustain his performance for over 12 years? Rarely do we encounter athletes who can compete at such a high level for more than one Olympiad, much less three.

I run about 35-40 miles per week on my low carb regimen and I certainly do not carb load or carb replenish. If I space out my workouts intelligently, my body recovers just fine for the next workout. No, I can't do back to back days of 400 meter repeats (without a dip in performance), but I can come back 48 hours later and repeat my performance! I can't run a 14 mile run two days in a row at the same time, but I can recover much quicker than I used to on a low fat diet.

Just because your spin class meets every day, that doesn't mean you have to attend each day. I just read this month's "Men's Health" and a reader asked whether or not he would lose muscle if he stopped lifting for a week? The "expert" answered that the person should not expect to lose any muscle mass. In fact, he may even come back more refreshed and even exceed his prior performance. Muscle building happens during repair, not during muscle exhaustion. We low carbers know that we don't lose muscle mass on our high fat diets.

Consider one final quote from Gordon Pirie:

"To reach the upper levels of our potential, however, takes years of dedication and intense, carefully controlled training. Training involves constantly striving to remove weaknesses that hold us back. All the great runners have spent years working their way up through the local and regional levels before achieving true national or world-class status. Results do not come from the previous month's training, but from years of dedicated development. One recent study quantified this, and found that an average of 10.2 years was needed for champions to develop. Joan Benoit did not become an Olympic Champion because of what she did in the weeks before the Games - she had laid the groundwork for her great run with years of training. I ran the first eight kilometres of the Auckland Marathon with Joan many years ago, a race in which she won in only 2:31. Her “Super Ability” was only hinted at then (she was already a great runner), and has taken years to mature. The great African runners who came to dominate road racing in the US have been running all their lives. They did not suddenly appear out of nowhere to beat the best runners in the world, but ran for years before reaching championship level. An African youngster runs as a way of life."

Based on this, I argue that it takes years of intelligent training to become a world class athlete. It doesn't take sugar, it takes dedication and respect for the body. Sure, you could carb load and poke yourself with steriods and get there quick, but you'll do so at a high cost to your health. The goal should be to work for life, not just gratification.

I wanted to post more studies, but I really wanted to comment on this issue. I'll add more study links if I respond to comments.

All the best,

Charles

THANKS for sharing your experience, Charles! I'm so happy to have your perspective on my forum.

Hey Charles, I just love reading a post by someone who know what he is talking about from experience. Post often.

Rozi

Thanks, Jimmy and Rozi. By the way, on Mary Vernon's blog, she did respond to a person looking for marathon training advice and she addressed the issue of carbo loading. She said, "I believe a person should race the way they train." If you train low carb, you should race that way. I think she cites studies showing that low glycemic foods work better pre-race because they don't send your blood sugar levels all over the map.

Regards,

Charles

Excellent discussion!

I am a member of Anthony's site, and it has been said to me that the amount of carbs consumed POST workout would be in direct corralation to the workout itself. I am not a competative lifter nor a sprinter etc etc, so my carb intake would be lower after a workout... just enough to replenish the glycogen stores.

My daily carb intake is anywhere from 20g to 45g depending on how heavy I workout.

My carbs do come from fruits and veggies, and on occasion a replenishing drink post workout.

I think maybe there is some misunderstanding in what Anthony means... I know for me, that is what was said for my needs.

Thanks!

Renee

I eat NOTHING before a workout. Crazy thing is that whatever appetite I may have had before the workout fades afterwards.

OK. I see what your saying...basically just take time to heal as trying to speed up the process isn't worth the trouble it causes. Makes sense.

So here is another question. I have experienced a definite drop off in strength since starting low carb. I'm willing to attribute a lot of that to the fact that I was doing kimkins...however, i've read where that can happen on atkins as well. Ketogenic diets (based on what I've read) are great for fat loss while sparing muscle but they are not supposed to be good for high intensity exercises like weight lifting or muscle building.

As for myself, like I mentioned before I can definitely tell a difference in the weight room.

Have you experienced that and is there anyway to avoid it?

Hogsfan:

Ketosis is more than just turning the strips purple and the bad breath. Those things show up when there are excess ketones in the body and the body has not yet become efficient at using them. Once you are "fat adapted" which can take a while to be fully complete (something not usually contemplated in many studies) the body is so efficient that you get no external showings because every ketone is being used to make energy. Dr. Eades explains:

It takes a while to become fully ketone adapted. At first, the body is making the ketones, but the tissues haven’t completely converted to using them for energy yet. The body then wastes the unused ketones (which are highly caloric) in the breath and urine. As time rolls on and the body becomes ketone adapted, it wrings every smidgen of energy it can out of the ketones, so you don’t get as great a loss as you do early on.

I eat high amounts of dietary fat. This, in addition to my body's own fat is what is used to provide ketones from fatty acids and the clean burn we've talked about. There has to be plenty of dietary fat available and this causes the body to be very efficient. This is why the Inuit would get sick in the spring, when there was only rabbits available (lean meat). They called this time, "rabbit starvation." The following study results happen at two weeks. Imagine what happens at 2 months:

These results would suggest that 2 weeks of adaptation to a high-fat diet would result in an enhanced resistance to fatigue and a significant sparing of endogenous carbohydrate during low to moderate intensity exercise in a relatively glycogen-depleted state and unimpaired performance during high intensity exercise.

I only go into glucose burning at intensities over 80 to 85% fo VO2 Max. There is very little exercise that you and I can do that reaches that level. That is sprinting. Long distance running happens at 70-80% if you're really moving. You save those glucose stores for the big finish, the Finni Brittanique, the Coup de Grace!

I also don't lift weights at that intensity. Maybe the guys who "carbcycle" do, but I don't think it's worth it.

Regarding your second question about maintaing weight, you're assuming that exercise is what burns calories. That thinking is based on the calories in/calories out hypothesis which is false on so many levels. You don't gain body fat because you eat too much or lose body fat because you eat too little. That has to do with how much dietary fat is available. If fat is availble, our bodies jettison fat stores. If it's not, the body stores fat. It doesn't take very much fat to get it done. Excess sugar will cause the body to store fat, among other things. I read yesterday that a 150 pound person has enough fat stores to walk from Miami to New York without eating.

Regards,

Charles

So basically, the calorie in/cal out theory is shot to Hades...but a calorie is still a calorie.

The car in his example would still go further with more gas and not as far with less gas...even though it's engine isn't effecient.

So eating a higher fat diet to increase that FMH hormone would increase the bodies tendency to jettison fat...but so would dropping calories at the same time, correct?

Actually, hang on...Our discussion about weight lifting may not be over yet. The very last line of that study entitled " Ketogenic diets and physical performance" says:

"Therapeutic use of ketogenic diets should not require constraint of most forms of physical labor or recreational activity, with the one caveat that anaerobic (ie, weight lifting or sprint) performance is limited by the low muscle glycogen levels induced by a ketogenic diet, and this would strongly discourage its use under most conditions of competitive athletics."

So even this author is saying ketogenic diets are best for cardio, but not for weight lifting...Colpo may still be right, huh?

Hogsfan:

Moreover, the original question that led to this thread was a cycler who was taking a spinning class. The cycler had trouble keeping up with his class which met every day because he had low energy levels while he was on Induction. Colpo answered that it didn't have anything to do with the fact that the cycler was not fat adapted. He said the problem was the cycler's muscle glycogen stores were spent. Thefore he should ingest some liquid carb (in proportion to the workout) so that he can recover faster for the next day's class.

I disagreed with this advice. I believe the cycler did not need to attend the class every day to get the benefit he was after. He could have modified his training to every other day or every third day since he didn't have the attendant muscle loss that the other spinners experienced. In my view, he could have achieved the same benefit in less time on a low carb regimen.

That is what Colpo and Jimmy discussed on Jimmy's blog. I don't know if that is clear in this thread.

Charles

Thanks, Hogsfan:

I ran track and cross country in high school and a little in college, but then I went to the Navy, got married, got out, and got fat. So running was naturally something I went back to. I haven't reached high school speed, but I've convinced myself it may be possible....

I totally agree with your thirst for knowledge. I was always taught to give credit to the one who said the information, so I tend to remember. Once you have a name, Google works wonders.

Great thread guys! Listen, I am one of Colpo's biggest supporters; however, I'm not a fanatic or believe that any one person has all the answers. Charles, I have a question for you bro, as I've enjoyed your posts in this thread.

I've been playing around with the glycogen replenishing techniques that Colpo suggests for the past two months and I have not gained weight taking in PWO carbs and my recovery time has been faster. But, I need to cycle off of this and go back to my keto/paleo style diet to compare the two. So, I'll let you guys know.

On another note, I'm still trying to find out why so many folks are hell bent on showing this notion of a "metabolic advantange" with eating LC as opposed to other diets, and that calories in/out theory, based on the second law of thermodynamics, is wrong. One thing that Colpo cites in his books, as well as other authors such as Dr. Gregory Ellis, is that under metabolic ward conditions, this "metabolic advantage" doesn't exist. Also, we know the researchers that Atkins was heavily influenced by (i.e., Kekwick and Pawan) had their theories challenged, and dismissed by their peers. All of the current research I'm familiar with are not done under metabolic ward conditions, which explains the varying results. I just wanted your take on this bro.

Thanks,
Muata
http://mrlowbodyfat.blogspot.com

Bryan,

Thanks for re-posting your thoughts.

Sorry to butt in, but I was just looking over your blog and I couldn't help but notice this:

just thought I'd add my little story here, it seems to mirror Muata a bit... I started Atkins about five years ago, lost 40 or so pounds in the first six months, and not a pound more for the next five years. I started at 230, after Atkins, my weight hovered around 195-200. It stayed in that range no matter how low my carbs were, as long as they were kept low. I don't know what my upper limit is, I never bothered to find out.

Nothing I did would budge my weight - I tried zero carbs for awhile, nada. Daily cardio did zip. Dropped that after starting HIT style strength training, but my weight still stayed the same.

A lot of people point out that perhaps I didnt need to lose more. I am 51 years old, 6 feet tall, perhaps that is where my body wants to be. Even the esteemed Regina Wilshire tried to convince me of this, over on the ALC forum. Sorry, but I dont buy it.

At around 192, my body fat was recorded around 13-14%. That's not bad. But not good enough for me! For some reason, my body stores a lot of that around my belly, so I still don't look as slim and