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Low Carb Discussion Forum > The Livin' La Vida Low-Carb Plans > Who's On The Zero Carb Path?
Dave
This is for all the folks who claim Dr Atkins never advised zero carbs.

QUOTE
*NOTE* This is from the book, Bantam edition / September 1972 paperback...

Not sixty grams of carbohydrate on this diet but zero grams
Here’s how this diet is significantly different. During the first week on this diet, you cut your intake of carbohydrates down to what is biologically zero.
This creates a unique chemical situation in the body, the one favorable to the fastest possible burning of your body’s stored fat. Ketones are excreted, and hunger disappears.
You see, the first fuel your body burns for energy comes from the carbohydrates you eat and drink. If any carbohydrate is available, your body burns this rather than stored fat-and maintains its old metabolic pathways. But carbohydrates, as such, are not stored in the body beyond forty-eight hours.
So when no carbohydrate is taken in, your body must draw upon the major reserve source of fuel-the stored fat.
It is forced to take a different metabolic pathway. In this process your body converts from being a carbohydrate-burning engine.
This is The Diet Revolution: the new chemical situation in which ketones are being thrown off-and so are those unwanted pounds, all without hunger.
A gradual addition of carbohydrate to keep your body burning it’s fat as fuel. We must maintain this chemical situation if you’re to continue to lose without hunger. And if we add carbohydrate very gradually in tiny amounts-we can do just this… keep your body converted into a fat-burning engine.
So that is just what we do. The second week you might add a few grams of carbohydrate to your diet. Every week thereafter a little more carbohydrate (around five grams) may be returned to the diet.

The Rules of Original Atkins

The Diet Revolution Rules (Level One)
1. Don’t count calories
2. Eat as much of the allowed foods as you need to avoid hunger.
3. Don’t eat when you are not hungry.
4. Don’t feel you must finish everything on your plate just because it is there.
5. Drink as much water or calorie free beverages as thirst requires. Don’t restrict fluids… but it is not necessary to force them either.
6. Frequent small meals are preferable.
7. If weakness results from rapid weight loss, you may need salt.
8. Everyday take a high-strength multivitamin pill.
9. Read the labels on “low-calorie” drinks, syrups, desserts,. Only those with no carbohydrate content are allowed.

The First Life-Changing Week, eat nothing that is not on the list.
Meat: Steaks, Corned beef, Lamb chops, tongue, Hamburgers, Bacon, Any kind of meat in any quantity—except meat with fillers such as sausage, hot dogs, meatballs, most packaged “cold cuts”
Fowl: Duckling, Turkey, Chicken, Anything with wings, No stuffing
Desserts: Gelatin with artificial sweeteners (e.g., D-Zerta [is that still around?])
Condiments: Salt, pepper, mustard, horseradish, vinegar, vanilla, and other extracts; artificial sweeteners; any dry powdered spice that contains no sugar
Drinks: Water, Mineral water, Vichy, Club soda; Beef or Chicken broth, bouillon; Sugar free diet soda; coffee*, tea, decaffeinated coffee
---------*Special note on caffeine and Diet Cola. Because most heavy people have some hypoglycemia, coffee, which contains caffeine, should be limited to six servings a day (cups). If you know you have low blood sugar, better limit it to three.
Fish: All fish, including canned salmon, tuna; any kind of seafood, including oil-packed and smoked, except oysters, clams, muscles, scallops, and pickled fish
Eggs: Boiled, fried, scrambled, poached, omelet – any style and without limitations
Salads: Two small green salads a day (each less than one cupful, loosely packed) made only of leafy greens, celery, or cucumbers and radishes. Dressings with vinegar, oil, salt, dry spices, herbs, grated cheese, or anchovies. Or else a sour pickle in place of a salad. Plus… green olives.
Butter & Mayonnaise Fats: Butter, margarine (head New Diet Revolution & eat no margarine with trans fatty acids), oils, shortening (not such a great idea), lard & mayonnaise (fats have no carbohydrates).
Juice: Juice of one lemon or lime
Cheese: Four ounces a day of any hard aged cheese. No cream cheese or cheese spreads.
Heavy Cream: Four teaspoons a day. (Cream has less carbohydrate than milk – so don’t use milk)
Diet Revolution Salad Material: Celery, Chicory, Chinese Cabbage, Chives, Cucumber, Endive, Escarole, Fennel, lettuce, Olives (Green or Black), Onions, Pickles (Sour or Dill), Parsley, Peppers, Radishes, Scallions, watercress.
What Happens After The First Week’s Diet. Most diets are fixed formulas and are therefore short-termed and self-limiting. This diet is fixed only for a week. After that – because it must be a lifetime diet, it is, as variable as are individual tastes.
I’ve labeled the additions of carbohydrate that follow’ second level’, ‘third level’, ‘fourth level’, ‘fifth level’, but in fact the additions are interchangeable and flexible. You can make any of these additions any week that you choose. I am so committed to making this a livable lifetime diet that I am letting you select your own variations, within the rules set up by your biological rulebook.
Put back what you’ve missed the most: The idea is simply to gradually return to your diet first what you missed most. Custom-tailor the diet to suit your carbohydrate additions to suit your lifestyle. All that matters is that you add back to your diet a little carbohydrate at a time, and that you stop adding carbohydrate when you reach your CCL.
How to know when to put back a little carbohydrate: Ask yourself: Are the keto-stix still turning purple? Am I still un-hungry? Have I stopped eating at night? Do I have more energy? Am I still losing weight or inches nicely? Remember, your tape measure is a lot better friend than your scale, not only more accurate, but better able to report on the actual fat (not just temporary water) losses this diet achieves.
The Second Level: Cheesecake for dessert? At each level, remember you add approximately five to eight grams of carbohydrate daily for a week and analyze the results. Most people agree the best way to handle the second level is to add cottage cheese…
The Diet Revolution Vegetables (not for level one): All of the above plus; Asparagus, Avocado, Bamboo Shoots, Bean Sprouts, Beet Greens, Broccoli, Brussels Sprouts, Cabbage, Cauliflower, Chard, Chinese Cabbage, eggplant, Kale, Kohlrabi, Mushrooms, Okra, Onions, Peppers, Pumpkins, Rhubarb, Sauerkraut, Snow Pea Pods, Spinach, String Beans, Summer Squash, Tomatoes, Turnips, Water Chestnuts, Wax Beans, Zucchini Squash

Sample menu, level one:
Breakfast: Scrambled eggs with spicy ham, Diet revolution roll and butter, Bouillon, coffee, or tea
Lunch: Cold cuts sandwich on Diet revolution Roll w/ mayo or mustard, 1 cup of salad (loosely packed), oil & vinegar, or a dressing from the recipe list, Raspberry gelatin, Diet soda, coffee, or tea
Dinner: Chicken soup with Matzoh Balls, Your favorite cut of steak, Caesar salad with Caesar Salad dressing, Gelatin, diet soda, coffee or tea
Snack: baken-ets, stuffed celery, diet soda.

Sample menu, level two:
Breakfast: Lox and stuffed onion omelet, caraway Diet revolution Roll with cream cheese, Bouillon, coffee, or tea
Lunch: Avocado stuffed with crabmeat, Tossed green salad with dressing from recipe list, diet soda, coffee, or tea
Dinner: Mixed grill with garlic Butter Sauce or Béarnaise Sauce, Tossed salad with French Dressing, Gelatin Parfait with whipped cream, diet soda, coffee, or tea
Snack: Assorted smoked fish, Hard cheese, Diet soda
Low Carb Discussion Forum
valerieslivingbooks
Dave, I confess that I didn't read all that you put above because I just finished reading the book myself, but did you notice that he said (don't have a page number for you) that some people might even have to take away the lettuce to succeed with Atkins?

IOW: I agree with you that Atkins saw a place for ZC for some people.

(In my reading, Dr. A. does not come across as having a rigid program that only works if it's done within extremely narrow parameters. Even in 2002, his remarks following his presentation of the Fat Fast do lead in the direction that everybody shouldn't necessarily be eating loads of veggies.)
sjm
I assume you noticed that carbohydrates were added back in after the first week.

A lot of people miss that part. A lot of people just did the first week of 72 Atkins... just as people today get stuck on Induction and never move on.
Dave
QUOTE (sjm @ Nov 1 2007, 10:41 AM)
I assume you noticed that carbohydrates were added back in after the first week.

A lot of people miss that part. A lot of people just did the first week of 72 Atkins... just as people today get stuck on Induction and never move on.

Also I read that he said some peopel are that sensitive that they may have to stay on induction for longer. He even gave a tale of one of his patients that did that and he was still slowly losing, but losing.


Why is this even an argument?



I've read the book.
Dave
QUOTE (valerieslivingbooks @ Nov 1 2007, 10:40 AM)
In my reading, Dr. A. does not come across as having a rigid program that only works if it's done within extremely narrow parameters.

Indeed!

I have a video where he stresses that one of his major contensions was that one diet does not fit all, and that people have to tweak it for different metabolisms.

It's nice to know that not everyone here is aggressive towards my current choice of gaining health.

I know how my body reacts to things.
sjm
QUOTE (Dave @ Oct 31 2007, 09:12 PM)
QUOTE (sjm @ Nov 1 2007, 10:41 AM)
I assume you noticed that carbohydrates were added back in after the first week.

A lot of people miss that part. A lot of people just did the first week of 72 Atkins... just as people today get stuck on Induction and never move on.

Also I read that he said some peopel are that sensitive that they may have to stay on induction for longer. He even gave a tale of one of his patients that did that and he was still slowly losing, but losing.


Why is this even an argument?



I've read the book.

No argument on my part.

It's one thing for a patient of Dr. Atkins (or any physician) to stay on Induction longer. It's another for some person who's only read part of the book (and I hope you know that happens!) and decides to do it on their own.

I've seen a lot of people mutate Atkins (any version) into whatever they want it to be... they generally don't succeed with their weight loss... or health goals.

Not suggesting that that's what YOU'RE doing, Dave... just pointing out that even 1972 Atkins wasn't about 0 carbs for life.

Dave
QUOTE (sjm @ Nov 1 2007, 01:36 PM)
QUOTE (Dave @ Oct 31 2007, 09:12 PM)
QUOTE (sjm @ Nov 1 2007, 10:41 AM)
I assume you noticed that carbohydrates were added back in after the first week.

A lot of people miss that part. A lot of people just did the first week of 72 Atkins... just as people today get stuck on Induction and never move on.

Also I read that he said some peopel are that sensitive that they may have to stay on induction for longer. He even gave a tale of one of his patients that did that and he was still slowly losing, but losing.


Why is this even an argument?



I've read the book.

No argument on my part.

It's one thing for a patient of Dr. Atkins (or any physician) to stay on Induction longer. It's another for some person who's only read part of the book (and I hope you know that happens!) and decides to do it on their own.

I've seen a lot of people mutate Atkins (any version) into whatever they want it to be... they generally don't succeed with their weight loss... or health goals.

Not suggesting that that's what YOU'RE doing, Dave... just pointing out that even 1972 Atkins wasn't about 0 carbs for life.

You actually bring up a very valid point!

Thanks for clearing that up.


The only reason I go zero carb is because of my insulin resistance.

I actually love tomatoes, lettuce, onions, strawberries and melon.

I am not a fruit and veggie hater!

My other half follows atkins maintenance.
Charles
QUOTE (Dave @ Nov 1 2007, 03:32 AM)
It's one thing for a patient of Dr. Atkins (or any physician) to stay on Induction longer. It's another for some person who's only read part of the book (and I hope you know that happens!) and decides to do it on their own.

I've seen a lot of people mutate Atkins (any version) into whatever they want it to be... they generally don't succeed with their weight loss... or health goals.

Dave notwishstanding, that's not the only reason for a person to go zero carb. Just as it's not proper to tell someone they need vegetables when they can't metabolize them, it's also not proper to say that a person needs to eat vegetables for some reason. Some people simply do not like them and there are NO studies that prove a person needs vegetables. We do however have studies where people have fared quite well in the absence of vegetables. That said, I would never suggest to anyone not to eat low glycemic vegetables, but they should certainly be limited to make sure a person is burning fat for fuel primarily as Dr. Atkins wrote.

In view of what Dr. Atkins wrote, there is simply no metabolic difference between 20g of carbohydrate and 0g. The point is, fat is the primary fuel for the body and we all seem to function better when this is the case. Can some people continue to burn fat primarily on a higher level of carbohydrate, probably yes. The point remains that fat burning has to be primary.
Kristine
QUOTE
Dave notwishstanding, that's not the only reason for a person to go zero carb. Just as it's not proper to tell someone they need vegetables when they can't metabolize them, it's also not proper to say that a person needs to eat vegetables for some reason. Some people simply do not like them and there are NO studies that prove a person needs vegetables. We do however have studies where people have fared quite well in the absence of vegetables. That said, I would never suggest to anyone not to eat low glycemic vegetables, but they should certainly be limited to make sure a person is burning fat for fuel primarily as Dr. Atkins wrote.


Yep, as always, you get to the point and make things clear. How do you do that?! I am trying to improve my writing skills, but my posts look like a shy third grader wrote them. Actually, it isn't my "writing" skills that need improving as much as my "communication" skills.

Anyway, yes, I have fallen into the thinking that vegetables are best and the only good excuse I have for eliminating them is that I sort of "have" to at this point. I am guilty of shunning vegetables and feel that I need to offer an excuse to the vegetable police! hee hee
Charles
QUOTE (Kristine @ Nov 1 2007, 10:35 AM)
Anyway, yes, I have fallen into the thinking that vegetables are best and the only good excuse I have for eliminating them is that I sort of "have" to at this point. I am guilty of shunning vegetables and feel that I need to offer an excuse to the vegetable police! hee hee

Thanks for the kind words, Kristi.

Dr. Atkins was clearly a guy who loved variety in his meals. You can see from his menus that they were very creative and they formed what he called, "a luxurious way to eat." He felt that the variety would help people to embrace this as a way of eating and continue on it. However, we understand today that variety is purely psychological and that the majority of people who lose weight and are able to keep it off, tend to eat meals that are lacking in variety.

It's clear from many statements in his books that he did not have all of the information available at his fingertips. He believed that exercise was vital and necessary to weight loss and weight maintenance when we know that not to be the case. He believes we have a "need" for veggies when we just had a major study that concluded after his death, the Nurses study, which clearly showed no benefit from fruit and vegetables. We also uncovered the bones of mummys in Ancient Egypt and we saw the effects of a strict vegetarian diet without refined carbohydrates.

I say all of that to say, there is no need to apologize. People shouldn't have to defend such a choice, especially here in the Zero Carb forum!!!!

xrod

Charles, I couldn't agree more when you point out that vegetables are NOT essential!!!

To do my best broken record impersonation:

ESSENTIAL Amino Acids, ESSENTIAL Fatty Acids, essential carbolic acids? essentiatl fibrous acids? (Lol! "fibrous acids?!?!" Yes, folks, you've just witnessed the "coining" of a new phrase!)

Xavier

Dave
QUOTE (Charles @ Nov 2 2007, 12:44 AM)
QUOTE (Dave @ Nov 1 2007, 03:32 AM)
It's one thing for a patient of Dr. Atkins (or any physician) to stay on Induction longer. It's another for some person who's only read part of the book (and I hope you know that happens!) and decides to do it on their own.

I've seen a lot of people mutate Atkins (any version) into whatever they want it to be... they generally don't succeed with their weight loss... or health goals.

Dave notwishstanding, that's not the only reason for a person to go zero carb. Just as it's not proper to tell someone they need vegetables when they can't metabolize them, it's also not proper to say that a person needs to eat vegetables for some reason. Some people simply do not like them and there are NO studies that prove a person needs vegetables. We do however have studies where people have fared quite well in the absence of vegetables. That said, I would never suggest to anyone not to eat low glycemic vegetables, but they should certainly be limited to make sure a person is burning fat for fuel primarily as Dr. Atkins wrote.

In view of what Dr. Atkins wrote, there is simply no metabolic difference between 20g of carbohydrate and 0g. The point is, fat is the primary fuel for the body and we all seem to function better when this is the case. Can some people continue to burn fat primarily on a higher level of carbohydrate, probably yes. The point remains that fat burning has to be primary.

Charles your quote says that I said that stuff, but I didn't, that was sjm.

You threw me there for a second!
Charles
QUOTE (Dave @ Nov 1 2007, 06:54 PM)
Charles your quote says that I said that stuff, but I didn't, that was sjm.

You threw me there for a second!

Sorry Dave. I should have said, "Dave's reason notwithstanding", as if to say, just because you can't metabolize vegetables is not the only reason others may elect to avoid vegetables. There are many other reasons and none of them need to be justified to anyone.
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