Sorry for yet another question post! I feel like I'm always here asking the 'masters' for advice! Anyway, yesterday was my first true day of induction and I've already lost two pounds. So I'm thrilled about it, but there's still so much I'm confused on. So I'm hoping someone can help me understand a little better.

1. I love ground beef, but I get tired of it quickly. Would ground turkey or chicken be okay to eat in its place? I know I'm supposed to have a lot of fat, so I was wondering if that substitution was okay, or if I should just suck it up and get used to it.

2. DANDR says that you shoudld eat a max of 20 carbs, and most from vegetables. If I do that, and I'm still a bit below 20 carbs, would it be okay for me to eat something that isn't on the acceptable food list? Or is that the law for induction? I have these protein shakes that I absolutely love, they're Jay Robb Egg White protein shakes. They can be mixed with water, but I usually blended them with unsweetened soymilk and ice. The ingredients list states egg albumin, xylitol, cocoa powder, natural flavor, xanthan gum, lecithin and stevia. It has four carbs, but two are sugar alcohols. Are these safe, or should I shove them in a drawer somewhere I can't see them and wait until OWl? (I got into these since I can't have Splenda and practically every carb controlled food/shake that I've found has it as an ingredient.)

3. Are calories something I have to watch for? I've read so many conflicting opinions on them, I'm not sure what to do. I'm sure I'm eating less caloriess than I used to, just by cutting out the enormous amount of sugar I used to eat, but I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not on the Atkins? Yesterday my total calorie count was a little more thatn 1,200 with the carbs at 15, and today my calories are only up to 622, with my carbs at 2 but that's without dinner. I guess my question is, do I pay any attention to the calories, or just the carbs?

4. Once I'm past the "I want sugar, in any way shape or form" stage, on the induction - I know it's coming and I'm prepared for it - could I stay on the induction amount of carbs, if a bit more flexibly, until I'm closer to my goal weight? I know people can handle different levels of carbohydrates, but I'm terrified that upping them will lead to me overeating, especially on something like fruit. I can never seem to stop at just a small serving of berries. I know i'm only on my second day of induction, but I've done a looser version of the Atkins before and as soon as I added a few carbs to my diet, I gained back everything I lost with interest.

5. How do you deal with the people who look at you like you just slapped them when you say you're on a low carb diet? I learned not to say the Atkins, since the low-fat zealots practically stage a protest on your lawn, but I still get negative responses. Even my mom, who is diabetic, thought I was crazy for trying this. (Though, I'm happy to say, her doctor convinced her to adopt a carb controlled eatting plan, that she's starting tomorrow, after she goes to the store! ) I have great support with my boyfriend - I'd lose an arm if I tried to steal one of his Twizzlers anyway - so I can do this regardless, but I still don't know how to get out of the "But it's so unhealthy!" conversations with other people.

6. Are supplements absolutely essential? I'm a college student - though not this semester - and money is really tight, so I can't really afford $20 on supplements every month, in addition to the increased grocery bill from my new WOE. I take a multi-vitamin every day though, since the bloodwork said I was anemic two weeks ago. Is that enough?


Sorry for the long post, but I figured it was better to ask everything all at once, rather than clutter it with several different posts.

#1... yes.

#2 ... No. You should eat ONLY from the Acceptable List of Induction foods while on Induction.. I wouldn't think the protein shakes would be unacceptable, just don't use them instead of real food, or as a meal replacement.

And... it's 20 NET carbs (carbs minus fiber), and it's 12-15 NET carbs from vegetables.

#3... not at this time. The ONLY reason I ask anyone about calories is to make sure they're eating enough. 1200 isn't enough... no one doing Atkins should do less than 1500 - 1800. A good rule of thumb is to eat calories at 10-12 times your current body weight. The very simple reality is that not enough calories or carbs will not help you lose, nor be nutritionally sound.

#4 ... absolutely not. There's 4 phases of Atkins... and I've yet to meet anyone who was successful long term by doing Induction all the way to goal. If you have a problem with fruit, such as berries, then don't eat them. I know some one who can't eat apricots without wanting to eat the entire house. So she doesn't eat them. Plums don't have that problem for her, so she eats them. That's the kind of food knowledge you need to be successful... and that's what you learn on OWL.

I'd also be interested to know what your "looser version" was and what the "few carbs" you added back were. You have that knowledge, so you can use it to your advantage now.

#5. I don't really tell people... it's not of their business... It's not that I'm ashamed of doing Atkins... it's just that I don't think that I need to explain my eating to everyone I meet. Here's a phrase that you can use: "I eat whole, unprocessed foods, no sugar, no refined carbohydrates, heart healthy fats, lots of vegetables, low glycemic fruits."

If someone says, "It so unhealthy", say, "Thank you for your concern. I'll be sure to mention your concern to my doctor." Repeat as needed.

Remember that it takes 2 people to have a conversation... so if YOU don't talk about your eating, then the other person is just left talking to his/her self.

#6. No, you don't have to add anything else (imho). As long as you're taking a multi, that's a good start. Your grocery bill should even out.

Thanks! Oh, I meant net carbs. I had two cups of broccoli yesterday, which according to atkins, is somewhere around 8-9 carbs.

As for the 'looser' variation of Atkins, it was one of the diets my doctor put me on. I'm pretty lucky to have decent insurance, as well as a doctor who accepts, and even pushes, low carb diets, if only his own version of them. He started me at 30 carbs per day though, and I wasn't allowed any cheese or cream. Also, only lean cuts of meat, no dark meat, and beef only twice a week I was to get most of my carbs through vegetables, especially greens and carrots. After a month, he told me to add fruits, two slices of whole grain bread, and some natural peanut butter to my diet every day. I was supposed to start eating smaller portions of everything and paying more attention to when I ate. Strangely, the bread made me hungrier and I could never seem to stop at a single serving of fruit. When I brought it up to him again, he told me I'd just have to "push through" the hunger. Obviously, that didn't work, since I wound up binging too often and gaining back all twenty pounds, plus another eight.

First, I hope this isn't your last question post!!

OK....here's my opinion:
1. Yes. Don't cut fat, but chicken, turkey, etc are all acceptable protein sources.

2. No. Not if you're doing Atkins. I am a BIG believer that whatever your plan, be it Atkins or South Beach or Protein Power you should stick to the plan as written for at least 2 weeks. After that you can tweak thing, but the first 2 weeks, no. I also feel it's very important to cut out sweets as well as carbs. If you can't eliminate artificial sweeteners, at least cut back dramatically. Sugar alcohols can cause stalls, so be sure to watch for that when you do introduce them.

3. Initially calories should only be watched to make sure you're getting enough. The 1200+ day is probably ok, but higher calories in the first few weeks is the norm. I was eating over 2000 calories the for couple weeks and still loosing. Down the road you'll probably have to watch your calories, but initially concentrate on your carb and fat intake and don't worry how many calories you eat.

4. Yea, you can stay on induction levels if you want, and that might be good for you, but a bit higher level allows more variety and might be easier to stick with in the long term.

5. People tend to not ask me any more....they've heard it all! Seriously, I just simply say that the hype is not true and that there is lots of evidence that it is not only a safe and effective diet, it it also one of the most healthful diets. If they still looks skeptical I mention what I eat....meat and veggies mainly with some dairy and an occasional grain....most home cooked. They usually either start asking questions or walk away.....thinking about it I hope.

Family can be a bit harder. My sister is diabetic and on a controlled carb diet....but still has over 100 grams a day. She's on 2 meds, max dose on one and almost max on the other. She'll still argue with me!! I live several hundred miles away from 99% of my family, but I just keep telling them that I've researched things. I send them documents to back me up, but who knows if they read it! I do know they don't follow it!

6. Supplements are necessary for most of us, even if you are very careful. Some are fairly cheap....potassium being one of them....and important. At least a good multivitamin and some potassium each day. Be sure to get a good variety of natural foods tho!

Hi MLynn,

Try adding some veggies to each meal. Today I had some zuchinni with my eggs... yummy. Good carbs and not in a place I would usually have veggies.

P.S. Keep askin. If you have a question I am sure this is the right place to get correct information.

Karrie: How do you make zucchini with eggs? Or zucchini at all? I'm embarassed to admit that I've never had one. And I've never even heard of that combination before. I used to dice a small tomato and scramble it in with eggs, but I noticed that the tomatoes tend to cause a stall for me, so I'm trying to limit them to maybe once a month or so.


CindySue - That was the first thing that I thought as well! Going from no bread, to two slices a day seemed a bit much, in addition to the fruits. Do you know if bread can cause hunger like that though? I was doing pretty well on the diet, until I added the two slices of bread. I automatically wanted more and got hit with a sugar craving the size of Texas. As far as fruits go, if I do add them to my diet, I think I'll only buy in really small quantities. I can't overeat if they aren't there.


BamGal - I can't thank you enough for saying that! I definitely agree that red meat is important, especially since I'm anemic. (So tired of strange cravings and being weak all the time.) Also, I hate cooked fish, so the chicken, turkey, and cold tunafish with low fat mayo got pretty old. I only found out I was anemic two weeks ago, so I'm not sure how long it's been an issue, but I can only guess that it was even worse with such a small amount of red meat. Now I eat red meat at *least* three to four times a week.


SJM - I had two cups of the frozen Steamfresh broccoli. I had one cup for lunch and one cup with dinner. (I'm getting over a cold so my appetite isn't quite what it usually is.) According to the bag, each half cup serving has 4 carbs, 2 of which are fiber. I had two cups of it so that should be 8 net carbs. And I'm about half way through the DANDR book now, and what I've read makes a lot more sense to me than the common "starve yourself until you're thin" diets. And no, I'm following the Atkins now. I stumbled across Jimmy's blog and his before and after pictures were incredible. It got me to look into the Atkins and other LC approaches. Now that I'm here and I'm seeing all of these *amazing* results, I'm even more determined and inspired to stick to it.


Speaking of that, thank you all for responding and giving me a comfortable place to ask questions. I've been overweight my whole life - I was close to ten pounds at *birth* - so it's nice to have a place where I won't be judged for it.

THANK YOU for being here with an open and willing heart, MLynn! I'm so happy to see my forum members jumping right in to provide you the answers to your questions and NEVER stop asking. It's how you will learn to someday help the future MLynn's who show up here looking for help.

MLynn, your questions will always be welcome here. Lots of us are here 'cause we enjoy this topic and enjoy helping newbies find their own best way to LC.

Ask away. :-)

My take on Atkins is that it is an extremely flexible plan--not at all rigid--and intended to be customized to *your* tastes, budget, preferences, etc. You may want to read DANDR chapter 11 and see what you think.

#1. DANDR p. 107 states, "Eat liberally of combinations of fat and protein in the form of poultry, fish, shellfish, eggs and red meat....

DANDR p. 109 lists as accceptable "all fish...all fowl...all shellfish...all meat...all eggs."

IOW, DANDR is not the "beef" diet. It's the "meat you like best" diet. Few things in Atkins are absolutely critical. One is that you MUST NOT do a low-fat version of Atkins. DANDR p. 111, "I cannot stress strongly enough that trying to do a low-fat version of Atkins will interfere with fat burning and derail your weight loss."

So while you *shouldn't* choose out just lean meats and veggies and call that Atkins, you should feel FREE to choose whatever meat you like and add whatever fats you like, just as much as you like.

Trust your taste buds--and if you've been eating low-fat for years, slowly challenge them to enjoy a greater amount and variety of healthful fats.

#2 DANDR rules of Induction clearly state that you may include Convenience Foods. p. 113. Your shake mix would be considered a "controlled carb food product." You should just remember to read labels, which you have done, and to practice portion control.

Some earlier versions of Atkins were more strict in this respect, I belive, but I would say that YES, you may have your shake per DANDR 2002 Rules of Induction, p. 113 and 114.

Should you add shakes now? That's another question. There are lots of LC dieters who say no, some adamantly, based on their experiences, but ultimately, you're on your own here. You can either choose between "better safe than sorry" based on the experiences of others (legitimate) or try it yourself and see what happens (also legitimate).

You could also wait two weeks and then try. It's up to you. You're on a learning adventure. You have a starting place (Induction) and you go from there. Just make your choices deliberately and thoughtfully.

Your first day choices need not be perfect and do not necessarily dictate your ultimate success. Atkins isn't scary, dangerous, or filled with peril. It just isn't all that rigid.

(I did use a very limited amount of controlled carb product from day one--namely, a hot cereal mix with 2 gm/serving--and I have done very well. I don't think that's the kiss of death, but YMMV.)

3) Atkins does not want you to restrict calories.

DANDR p. 18--"When you restrict the number of calories you eat, your metabolism shifts into a survival mode, meaning it slows down to conserve energy."

DANDR p. 83--"While some people who follow the Atkins Nutritional Approach may eat fewer calories than before, it is certainly not because the program limits calorie intake."

DANDR p. 107--"Eat either three regular-sized meals a day or four or five smaller meals. Do not skip meals or go more than six waking hours without eating....Eat liberally of combinations of fat and protein...."

DANDR p. 108--"Adjust the quantity you eat to suit your appetite, especially as it decreases. When hungry, eat the amount that makes you feel satisfied but not stuffed."

DANDR p. 201--"You may have heard that you can eat as much as you desire of the acceptable foods. This is _not_ the case. If you stuff yourself with steaks and cheeseburgers, some of that protein will convert to glucose in your body. Instead, simply eat the amount that allows you to feel satisfied. If you have been overeating for years, perhaps even decades, you may not know what being satiated feels like, Experiment and find that place where you could say, 'I could eat more, but I am satisfied.'

(I feel that not eating enough is more likely than eating too much. If you are simply eating as much as you need to feel pleasantly full, and you are eating as much fat as you like, then the protein-to-glucose conversion stuff should not be an issue.)

#4. Induction lasts a *minimum* of two weeks, and as another variation on the same theme, any rigidity on the timing of induction does not come from Dr. Atkins.

DANDR p. 138, "Before you even think about stepping up from induction, consider the possibility of staying with it for a while longer. A lot of people think of Induction as _only_ two weeks, but it can be followed for a longer time. If you have a lot of weight ot lose or have difficulty losing weight, you might want to do Induction for quite a while. That way you'll see dramatic progress before moving on to the more moderate phases of the program."

(There is a LOT of wonderful advice in chapter 13 and 14.)

#5. I don't hear much of this, but I have two responses.

"I don't eat sugar or white flour." I've been saying this for nearly 20 years, and it still works for my LC plan. Most people just take it at face value. (Most people just *know* that those things are unhealthy.)

Rarely, to a semi-informed and insistent challenger, I will ask, "Have you ever read Atkins' book? It actually doesn't say...." And I'll challenge the person to read the book first and then be better prepared to criticize it.

Most people are willing to admit that reading it would be the fair thing to do before issuing further criticism, but ending the conversation this way makes them reluctant to further criticize until they have read the book. (Not that they do.)

I'm friendly about this (I hope), and I don't feel a need to convert or convince people who aren't interested or ready to hear it, so that helps (I think).

(Some people are just obnoxious and rude and don't respect your legitimate boundaries. It's rare but it happens. There's no need to justify yourself to them or let their problem be your problem.)

#6. I think supplements are beneficial, but your budget is what it is. I lost all of my weight on just a multivitamin a day, and I admit that I missed days regularly.

Make good choices, and do what works for you.

I tend to agree that it's good to start with Atkins *as written* the first two weeks. I just don't think that the plan was written rigidly. Where Atkins allows some Induction "wiggle room," who am I to say that you aren't allowed experiment with it? Read a variety of opinions, and then do what you think is best. Stay with it, work at it, enjoy it, and pay attention to your body. Keep at it, and I believe you will succeed and have an amazing and encouraging story to tell.

Just a comment about giving page #s in DANDR... not every edition has the same text on the same page #s... for example, my copy is the hardcover (white) one. I find it better to give the chapter and the section.

Or state, "In the mass paperback version..." Good reminder, sjm.

Mlynn - first please don't stop asking questions! I (being a newbie myself) appreciate the insight of the questions as well as the answers!

I, too, am working within a limited budget - but I find that if I put some effort into doing the research, making my list, checking it twice (Oh wait that's santa - nothing personal santa but good advice! ) - really taking the time to study the induction (after losing the book for 1 1/2 weeks & then recently getting it back - I can tell you - for me studying it is a must! ) Watching the sales, stocking up (meat) when I can. The trying new, more detailed recipes, for me, will wait until I am more "sure footed" in this new lifestyle.

As for my friends/family - telling them lowcarb was apparently a no-no, the lectures, the "looks" - oh well, I just smile & say - I am shooting for a healthier lifestyle & my body will let me know what works! I need to do something because my body is telling me I have to! Keep in mind my family is severely overweight as well - friends - they starve themselves before vacations, weddings, etc. - that's not for me! My sweetie on the other hand, supports me whatever I decide to do - he's a godsend for sure!

Pertaining to the bread & fruit - I had a slip up yesterday (reason today is day 1 of induction - again! ) I ate 1 small muffin & some fruit - I felt foggy & was actually STARVING afterwards! What does that tell me? For me - a serious no-no! Better planning is needed!

I too, like you, am learning - I am giving the exact induction, exactly the 14 days suggested. I will document, learn, listen to my body.

I would say 2 of the big problems for me is the water & eating - plain & simple I get busy just "forget" to drink & "forget" to eat regularly until I am beyond control. So I have set one of my cellphone alarm to go off every 1/2 hour for the water & the other I have it set to go off every 2 hours to eat something (snack, lunch, dinner, etc.)

I also am finding out that this forum is wonderful! Reading/posting in the morning & evening helps me SOOOOOO MUCH!

Please keep asking! It helps more than you know!

DANDR 2002 (white cover) calls for a *maximum* of 20 carbs per day. As far as I know it never says that you must be right at the maximum every day--or any day.

As far as I can tell, there is nothing wrong with eating 12 or 15 or 18 total net carbs in a particular day as long as you are getting your choice of either 3 cups of salad or 2 cups of salad plus 1 cup of vegetable.

These are maximum veggie quantities for that stage of Atkins, btw. Will more veggies hurt? Obviously not for some people; I've heard of great successes with more veggies from the beginning, and I can see why that would be.

Dr. A worked with thousands of dieters over decades, so perhaps he had reasons for those quantities.

He doesn't technically allow 1 cup of broccoli plus 1 cup of broccoli. The second veggie serving is supposed to be a salad. However, if you made your substitution choice deliberately and thoughtfully, understanding your options and why you've made that change, then that is your business. Provided that you are satisfied after your meals, I can't think of a biochemical reason that would make your choice inherently unreasonable.

IMHO, and this may be heresy for an Atkins girl like me (I think he was a genius and a hero), but there's nothing really wrong with reading the book, taking what works for you and eating more broccoli or more veggies in a careful, thoughtful, reasonable way. That will probably work just fine for the majority of people.

I also don't think it would be unreasonable or ridiculous to read more than one plan and taking some elements from each, provided that you understand how and why they work. (That takes some effort, sure, but this isn't rocket science either.)

And if it doesn't work, so what? Change it--and see what happens next. This is finding what works for you. This is understanding the biochemistry, so that you know a reasonable tweak from an unreasonable one. This is understanding yourself and your addictions (if any), so that you know a safe tweak from a dangerous one.

You're responsible for your own choices and finding out what works best *for you*. If you keep your eyes wide open, you'll find the path that works for you.

My way is to read advice from everyone, but transfer responsibility to no one. I'm in control of what I eat, and my choices are my responsibility, along with their consequences.